Holy Blood Holy Grail and the da vinci code


#1

Hello everyone,

I’ve just begun reading Holy Grail, Holy Blood, i’m sure u guys and gals have heard or read it, my question is how do u prove that
there assertions are wrong other than faith in the bible, because if you ask me there is really no such thing as historical fact unless there is scentific fact to back it up, i’m not saying i believe in everything in he book, but to me when it comes to religion everything is up in the air.


#2

I have not read it could you clarify what you are asking?:smiley:


#3

<< my question is how do u prove that there assertions are wrong other than faith in the bible, because if you ask me there is really no such thing as historical fact >>

OK, some historical facts about HBHG, the “Les Dossiers secrets” documents, and author Henry Lincoln (real name: actor Henry Soskin).

– Certain documents called Les Dossiers secrets de Henri Lobineau were not “discovered” but rather deposited at the Bibliothèque Nationale (National Library) of Paris in 1967, not in 1975.

– The documents are not “parchments” but rather texts on how to interpret certain parchments; the parchments were never at the National Library of Paris, but were handed over by Pierre Plantard (1920-2000), along with a manuscript he wrote, to an author of popular books about “the mysteries of France” by the name of Gérard de Sède (1921-2004).

– De Sède enhanced and published them as L’Or de Rennes ou la Vie insolite de Bérenger Saunière, curé de Rennes-le-Château (Julliard, Paris, 1967).

– The parchments seem to be in possession of a controversial French author, Jean-Luc Chaumeil, who claims to have received them from Plantard in the 1970s, while Les Dossiers secrets can still be found at the National Library in Paris.

– There is no doubt that both Les Dossiers secrets and the parchments are false documents, compiled in the year 1967, and all the people involved in the falsification have admitted it.

– De Sède, who published them first, twenty years later defined them as “apocryphal” inspired by a “market sensationalism” (Rennes-le-Château. Le dossier, les impostures, les phantasmes, les hypothèses, Robert Laffont, Paris, 1988, page 107).

– According to de Sède, the parchments were fabricated by Philippe de Chérisey (1925-1985), an impoverished French marquis who was a professional TV actor and devotee of enigmatic riddles.

– De Chérisey has repeatedly admitted to the fabrication of these parchments, both in letters and published texts (Circuit, The Author, Liège 1968; L’Or de Rennes pour un Napoléon, The Author, Paris, 1975; L’Énigme de Rennes, The Author, Paris 1978).

– As early as October 8, 1967 (confirmed by a letter from his lawyer), de Chérisey began working (without success) on getting paid, as had been agreed, by Pierre Plantard and Gérard de Sède.

– Even the third man involved in the trick, Pierre Plantard, admitted that the documents were false: in April of 1989, in the first issue of the second series of his journal, Vaincre, Plantard granted an interview and declared that Les Dossier secrets (which are signed by a certain “Philippe Toscan du Plantier”) are false documents fabricated by Philippe de Chérisey and by Philippe Toscan du Plantier, the latter being, he claimed, a young disciple of his who operated under the influence of the drug LSD; it is also possible the latter “Philippe” did not exist and he was named after the well known figure in the French movie industry Daniel Toscan du Plantier, in which case the co-author of Les Dossiers secrets with Chérisey was Plantard himself.

– The essential point is that all three authors of the Dossier secrets and other “documents” deposited at the National Library of Paris have admitted, publicly and in writing, that they were false documents.

– According to Les Dossiers secrets de Henri Lobineau (a name invented by the three tricksters) the legitimate heirs to the throne of France to this very day are still the Merovingians, dethroned in 751 by the Carolingians; Plantard claimed they have surviving descendants the last of which in 1967 was himself, and therefore he is the only true contender for the King of France.

– In order to protect the Merovingian descendants from their enemies, a secret society was formed, the “Priory of Sion” which – according to the false documents deposited at the National Library of Paris – had as “Grand Masters” certain alchemists and esoteric personalities such as Nicolas Flamel (1330-1418) who is a historical person well known to “Harry Potter” readers; Robert Fludd (1574-1637) who is principal promoter of the Rosicrucian legend; Johann Valentin Andreae (1586-1654); and scientists such as Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519); and Isaac Newton (1642-1727).

– The last of the Grand Masters would have been the writers Charles Nodier (1780-1844); Victor Hugo (1802-1885); musician Claude Debussy (1862-1918); poet and novelist Jean Cocteau (1889-1963); and Msgr. Francois Ducaud-Bourget (1897-1984), a priest with ties to the schismatic Msgr. Marcel Lefebvre (1905-1991).

– Ducaud-Bourget supposedly transferred the position to Plantard.

to be continued… :thumbsup:

Phil P


#4

This ‘theory’ (if you can even call it that) lies heavily on the evil roman catholic church covering up any evidence. But they weren’t good enough because the ‘evidence’ was hidden in things like architecture, and secret societies.

Like any good conspiracy, their proof lies in the lack of proof. Any proof whether scientific or not that you provide is only a fabrication of ‘the man’. The only proof they will ever accept is proof that says they are correct, no matter how far stretched.

My understanding of this book, it is partly also focused on something called the priory of Zion… A group of individuals whose ‘mission’ is to protect the ‘truth’. However, upon further research of this supposed secret society, it was shown not to exist at all…

This of coarse then feeds into their belief in a massive cover up…

Give the Holy Grail Holy blood ‘theory’ no more credibility than you would Roswell, Hitler being alive and well, Elvis was an alien, And that the US Government is funneling Drugs into the inner city to keep 'em down.

It is nothing but a hoax, guised as a conspiracy, played off as fact

In Christ


#5

continued… :thumbsup:

– It was also claimed that (by chance) the truth concerning the “Priory of Sion” and the famous parchments were hidden in the parish Church of a small French village, Rennes-le-Château, and were supposedly “discovered” in 1897 by the local parish priest, Berenger Saunière (1852-1917).

– Saunière, supposedly thanks to knowledge of the “secret,” came into contact with the esoteric and political milieu of the time and became incredibly wealthy (the source of his wealth turned out to be his dishonest “trafficking” in Masses).

– This “Priory of Sion” does not mention anything about a supposed relationship between Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene; this idea originated between 1969 and 1970, when an English actor, Henry Soskin (later known as Henry Lincoln, co-author of Holy Blood, Holy Grail), mostly known for his role in the TV series The Avengers, became interested in the “Priory of Sion.”

– Lincoln re-wrote the story of L’Or de Rennes and adapted it for a British audience, which aired as three documentaries by the BBC between 1972 and 1979 and later in a book published in 1982 with the help of Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail (Jonathan Cape, London).

– Since Lincoln realized that the identity of the person who was supposedly “the legitimate heir to the throne of France” was not very interesting for his British audience, he meshed a story published by Robert Ambelain (1907-1997), whom he had met through Plantard; in 1970 Ambelain had published Jésus ou Le mortel secret des templiers (Robert Laffont, Paris), in which he affirmed that Jesus Christ had a partner and identified this “concubine” as “Salome.”

– Lincoln incorporated Ambelain’s story about the marriage of Jesus with that of the Merovingians suggested by Plantard, and “revealed” that the Merovingians protected by the “Priory of Sion” were important, not because they were the heirs to the throne of France, but because they were the descendants of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene (better suited than “Salome” since Magdalene had connections to the parish church in Rennes-le-Château and with Medieval legends that she eventually settled and died in southern France, although without “husband” and children which were never part of these legends).

– Lincoln knew the documents were false as well not only because in the French milieu of the esoteric organizations into which he was introduced more or less everybody knew they were false, but also because Philippe de Chérisey had told him so in letters (some reproduced in Pierre Jarnac, Les Archives de Rennes-le-Château. Tome 2, Belisane, Nice, 1988).

How? That’s how. :thumbsup: :confused:

Phil P


#6

It isn’t countered by many with faith and scripture alone. There are many non-religious historians that have brought out many of the points mentioned in the other replies. One of my favorites is Dr. Bart Ehrman - he is, in fact, an atheist/agnostic. His book in response to the Da Vinci Code was very good. I understand what you say about history but there are some things that are so well-documented that it is difficult to question them. You seem to be saying that “history cannot be known” and asking “how do we know the history?” in the same breath - I think you’ve painted yourself in a corner and are putting the burden of proof on historians when the burden of proof should go on the whackos who are coming up with this stuff. :slight_smile: They should be questioned for their sources - so far, they have little to stand on.


#7

Now why do we trust the Gospels…glad you asked :smiley:

– The style of the Gospels is radically and clearly different from the style of all myths; there are no overblown, spectacular, exaggerated events; nothing is arbitrary, everything is meaningful;

– There was not enough time for myth to develop; several generations have to pass before the added mythological elements can be mistakenly believed to be facts; eyewitnesses would be around before that to discredit the new, mythic versions;

– The first witnesses of the Resurrection were women; in first-century Judaism, women had low social status and no legal right to serve as witnesses; if the empty tomb were an invented legend, its inventors surely would not have had it discovered by women, whose testimony was considered worthless; if the writers were simply reporting what they saw, they would have to tell the truth;

– The New Testament could not be myth misinterpreted and confused with fact because it specifically distinguishes the two and repudiates the mythic interpretation (2 Peter 1:16);

– The Gospels were written by eyewitnesses from internal evidence: the style of writing in the Gospels is simple and alive; the Gospels show an intimate knowledge of Jerusalem prior to its destruction in AD 70; the Gospels are full of proper names, dates, cultural details, historical events, and customs and opinions of that time;

– The stories of Jesus’ human weaknesses and of the disciples’ faults also bespeak the Gospels’ accuracy: the Gospels do not try to suppress apparent discrepancies, which indicates their originality; the Gospels do not contain anachronisms; the authors appear to have been first-century Jews who were witnesses of the events;

– The disciples must have left some writings, engaged as they were in giving lessons to and counseling believers who were geographically distant; what could these writings be if not the Gospels and epistles themselves;

– There were many eyewitnesses who were still alive when the books were written who could testify whether they came from their purported authors or not;

– The external evidence: extra-biblical testimony unanimously attributes the Gospels to their traditional authors; with a single exception, no apocryphal gospel is ever quoted by any known author during the first three hundred years after Christ; there is no evidence that any inauthentic gospel whatever existed in the first century in which all four Gospels and Acts were written;

– No other ancient work is available in so many copies and languages, and yet all these various versions agree in content;

– The text has remained unmarred by heretical additions; the abundance of manuscripts over a wide geographical distribution demonstrates that the text has been transmitted with only trifling discrepancies; the quotations of the New Testament books in the early Church Fathers all coincide; no one could have corrupted all the manuscripts;

– The text of the New Testament is every bit as good as the text of the classical works of antiquity; to repudiate the textual purity of the Gospels would be to reject all the works of antiquity, since the text of those works is less certain than that of the Gospels.

Why? That’s why. :thumbsup: From a summary of a chapter in Handbook of Christian Apologetics (1994) by Kreeft / Tacelli. Get this book if you don’t have it yet. Someday I’ll finish up my response to Brian Flemming’s DVD, but the same info will be found here eventually. Another unfinished project…

BTW, the info above on Les Dossiers Secrets and Henry Lincoln (Soskin) is a summary of material compiled by Italian researcher Massimo Introvigne who is a true religious scholar (unlike Lincoln, Baigent, Leigh, etc). His articles are (where I got my summary info):

Will the Real Priory of Sion Please Stand Up?
History and Myth of the Priory of Sion

Also on the “Priory of Sion” researcher Paul Smith is nice, although his plain web site could use an extreme makeover. :stuck_out_tongue:

Phil P


#8

Phil,

As always, you’ve done a masterful job of coverning all the bases and answering the questions that were asked. Kudos! By the way, I still go to your website for help. I also get very positive feedback from anyone that I send to your website. Keep up the good work.


#9

A couple of additional resources:

religionfacts.com/da_vinci_code/list.htm
spu.edu/depts/uc/response/summer2k5/features/davincicode.asp

Don
+T+


#10

thanks for the replies!!!

i guess it just depends on what type of person u are and what type of situation your in, like for me it’s very hard to believe in something that i can’t see with my own 2 eyes, i’ve always kind of believed that people believe in god because it’s just better to think there is a god then to think that when we die it’s all over.

thanks again for answering my questions


#11

You might enjoy reading C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity. It may help remove some of your sentiment concerning why people believe in God.


#12

Hmm…You might want to consider the possibility that historical facts may not have a scientific fact associated with them. Likewise, one needs to consider what they mean by scientific fact. Much of what is accepted as fact in science one day is disproved on another day. Even the newly accepted fact can sometimes fall into scientific disfavor as well.

It should also be noted that religious facts and scientific facts are not the same thing. Moreover, they do not have to contradict one another. Philosophical proofs are also outside the realm of science. Nevertheless, philosophical proofs and arguments can be every bit as valid as scientific proofs. Truth is truth but not all aspects of the truth are discerned by any single discipline.

Think about this…science is great but it may not be all that you think it is.


#13

A new historical fiction thriller “The Rozabal Line” by Shawn Haigins has claimed that Jesus Christ may have survived the crucifixion, traveled to Kashmir and that his present-day bloodline could possibly be fighting an Islamic Jihad in the ongoing strife along the Indo-Pak border. The book seems to claim that the body that lies in the Rozabal tomb in Srinagar (Kashmir) is actually that of Jesus Christ.

The novel, though a work of fiction, contains a wealth of historical, religious and spiritual suppositions. Haigins claims that Jesus spent his “lost years” in India because India was his spiritual home given that one of the ten lost tribes of Israel had settled down there. The book claims that Jesus derived much of his wisdom from Buddhist teachers and that Mary Magdalene was possibly a temple priestess originally from “Maghada” the ancient Indian Buddhist empire of North India. The Rozabal Line also attempts to explain why it is possible that the Church-promulgated official persona of Christ could have been based on the Hindu deity Christna. The author establishes his plot on the premise that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and that his bloodline may have converted to Islam during the early Muslim incursions into India. The author has then weaved a modern tale in the post 9/11 world of Osama, Al Qaeda and Waziristan.

Blending a commercial fictional plot with historical nuggets such as the commonly accepted view that St. Thomas, one of the twelve apostles, was specifically sent by Jesus to India, Haigins builds up a case to put forward the possibilities that the patriarchal figure of Abraham was loosely derived from “Brahma” the ancient Indian god of creation; that the “sacred feminine” was largely a Hindu concept; and that the trinity of the father, son and holy ghost, was actually derived from the ancient Vedic trinity of the creator, the nurturer and the destroyer. He explains why it is possible that the ritual of baptism was born along the banks of the river Ganges, and why “Spikenard” which was used by Mary Magdalene to anoint Christ was a sacred Indian herb. Haigins explains that the “three wise men” were probably Buddhists searching for “an incarnation” of the Dalai Lama, much in the same manner as is done today.

The Rozabal Line does not claim to be historically accurate. Shawn Haigins has clarified that he wanted to spin a racy thriller that could, in parallel, highlight an alternative theory surrounding the life and death of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. “While recent alternative theories have revolved around the Holy Grail and the travels of Mary Magdalene to France, the wealth of historical and religious information linking Jesus to India has remained relatively obscure and I hope that this book will bring it to the forefront,” said Haigins.

Even though the book has been released recently in mid-October, it has already notched up significant sales on Amazon.com and has generated considerable interest among the “conspiracy theory” aficionados and religious/historical fiction buffs. In Srinagar, the Rozabal Tomb has already become an important tourist destination, particularly after Suzanne Olsson’s effort to extract DNA from the body buried at Rozabal. Holger Kersten’s research summarized in his book “Jesus Lived in India” has also helped popularize the destination.


#14

Hey…that sounds like an add for Shawn Haigin’s book. All the information in his book was just a copy from from Suzanne Olsson’s research book, ‘Jesus in Kashmir The Lost Tomb.’ Go to amazon and read the reviews about both books then you’ll get the real information.


#15

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