Holy See Cautions Faithful On Medjugorje


#1

You can find the latest on Medjugorje from the Vatican by clicking on www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=713
In summary: On June 19, 2004 the Holy See confirmed that the church remains her official position of skeptism and "no new facts have emerged to alter the Church position is this case, and thus that the Holy See “must respect the competence of the local bishops.”


#2

Is it not amazing how some posts just puff and disappear? It appears Monsignor Ratko Peric; the Bishop of Mostar-Duvno’s views are not welcome on this forum. But I am not surprised; the Medjugorje industry has interests everywhere. Oh well… at least one person got to read them before it was deleted… so it was not in vain for me to labor after all.:thumbsup:


#3

Are we supposed to believe that nothing special happened at Medjugorje? As a non-Catholic, I found that story facinating… especially an account by a Lutheran man who visited several times to record whatever was going on. As a Lutheran, he was a huge skeptic to begin with but eventually he began to believe that it was all true and I think he eventually converted to the Catholic faith although I may be wrong about that. Anyhow, his book was one of the first “Pro Catholic” books I’ve ever read. So what’s the deal… was it all a big hoax? :frowning:


#4

If you are interested, I can send you some information. I will not waste my time posting it here any longer, it will be just deleted again.


#5

Yes I am interested. Ever since I read that book I’ve been telling Lutheran friends that they should check it out and I certainly wouldn’t want to be saying that if it was all a big joke or some money making scheme.

why would what you write be deleted? That hardly seems nice. ?? I’ve read lots of differing opinions on these sites… why wouldn’t yours be allowed?


#6

Unapproved apparitions are a banned topic, or at least they were until recently, that should explain it.

Let’s face it, it was a 21 year hoax and a scandal and we are not supposed to be posting about it.

It is a blight on the whole church.


#7

[quote=Hesychios]Unapproved apparitions are a banned topic, or at least they were until recently, that should explain it.

Let’s face it, it was a 21 year hoax and a scandal and we are not supposed to be posting about it.

It is a blight on the whole church.
[/quote]

I could accept that. The only problem is this: Very few people seem to realize it is a hoax. Meanwhile the messages are being churned out daily and after more than two decades the millions are still flocking there relentlessly in pious oblivion.


#8

[quote=carol marie]Yes I am interested.
[/quote]

In that case I will be happy to send you a few pages worth of Internet links to look over.


#9

But if it was all a big hoax why would the Lutheran guy who wanted to prove it was a big hoax, after years of going there, turn around and say it was real? He didn’t even “like” Catholics really (OK, he had that attitude… not that there’s anything wrong with Catholics… I just don’t want to be one!) Was it truly a big lie? That really upsets me because as I said, that was the very first book I read (followed by Scott Hahn, Jeff Cavins, Karl Keating etc.) that got me on road to the Catholic Church. How depressing to think that my interest in the Catholic Church was started on a great big lie. Hmmmmmm… gives me pause for wonder.


#10

Dear Carol Marie,
I am sorry to hear of your dilemma, but it is precisely because of the danger of conversions under false pretense that the church has not approved the phenomena at that place. There is no need for lies.

We believe that there is no conflict between faith and reason. We cannot sweep this under the rug, our faith is established on the Truth of Christ. If we do not have good reason to be Catholic without the hucksterism, we need to do some reflection. Many devout Catholics are offended by the circus there.

The Catholic Faith is Truth.


#11

Dear Carol, Piety, prayer and good works are not lone criteria for authenticating heavenly revelations. Satan will tolerate good to ultimately sew evil. A sign of true love for God is bearing long-lasting fruits and living orthodox, obedient lives respectful to all, especially those is authority. This is what makes me proud to be Catholic. God bless you


#12

[quote=carol marie]Was it truly a big lie? That really upsets me because as I said, that was the very first book I read (followed by Scott Hahn, Jeff Cavins, Karl Keating etc.) that got me on road to the Catholic Church. How depressing to think that my interest in the Catholic Church was started on a great big lie. Hmmmmmm… gives me pause for wonder.
[/quote]

If this would be the case, than this would be a good example how God can turn something hideous into something beautiful. I sent you four messages with 53 Internet links about Medjugorje. May these not shake your faith in the Catholic Church , but rather deepen it and mature it. God bless!:slight_smile:


#13

[quote=tru_dvotion]If this would be the case, than this would be a good example how God can turn something hideous into something beautiful. I sent you four messages with 53 Internet links about Medjugorje. May these not shake your faith in the Catholic Church , but rather deepen it and mature it. God bless!:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Carol Marie: I don’t believe it was a lie. Feel free to private message me if you like. Sue


#14

To keep this thread OPEN but yet to DELETE info that in no way was contradicting the Church, ie…nobody was giving accredidation to Medjugorie…but instead was backing up the Churchs’ current opinion, was very disingenuous by whomever did so. Does somebody have somethng against the POPE and NOT Medjogorie?


#15

Carol Marie, first let me say that I am happy to hear that you are exploring the Catholic faith and may one day be reconciled to the Church (I say reconciled because as a separated Christian you would not be a “convert” although that word is commonly used to describe Protestants who become Catholic).

Secondly, I would caution you to not take this one’s word or that one’s word for much of anything regarding apparitions. Let me explain a bit. Apparitions are ruled as one of three options by the Church (represented by the local bishop where the apparition is happening/took place). It may be ruled as “worthy of belief”. This means that Catholics are free to believe something truly spiritual took place and there is nothing contrary to the Catholic faith in the messages or visions. There are several examples of such rulings, such as Lourdes and Fatima.

The second ruling is that the visions, messages, etc. are strictly private–that they are not meant for everyone, therefore they are not to be held as “worthy of belief” by everyone.

And the third possible ruling is that “nothing spiritual happened” with regard to the apparition. This means that Catholics are not to regard the apparitions as “worthy of belief” and so are not to make pilgirmages nor follow the messages nor promote it.

You see that the Church does not label apparitions it does not approve as “hoaxes”. The reason is that it does not assume that those involved were trying to fool anyone. Fooling people for the purpose of gaining material goods is a matter for the police, not for the Church. In the case of Medjugorje no one has been accused by the local authorities of trying to gain by the apparitions. Of course, people have sold rosaries and statues and such things–they do at Lourdes and Fatima too. People profiting from apparitions says nothing whatsoever about their legitimacy.

I suggest you read “A Still, Small Voice” by Fr. Benedict Groeschel. It is an easy read and filled with good information about apparitions and how the Church views them. God bless you as you continue looking into the faith of Christ’s Church!


#16

From the Angelus, January 1979, Volume II, Number 1

Christians, Don’t Get Excited So Quickly!

Article by Msgr. Alfredo Ottaviani, Assessor of the Holy Office, later Cardinal and Secretary of this same Supreme Sacred Congregation of which the Pope himself is head, published in the official Vatican newspaper, L’OSSERVATORE ROMANO, February 4, 1951

sspx.ca/Angelus/1979_January/Christians_Excited.htm


#17

[quote=Faithful 2 Rome]To keep this thread OPEN but yet to DELETE info that in no way was contradicting the Church, ie…nobody was giving accredidation to Medjugorie…but instead was backing up the Churchs’ current opinion, was very disingenuous by whomever did so. Does somebody have somethng against the POPE and NOT Medjogorie?
[/quote]

Exactly! It would not have been deleted otherwise. There have to be Medjugorje supporters with the power to delete messages on this site. Just watch how far THIS discussion will be allowed to go before it gets deleted again.


#18

First, I’d like to say that I am so tired of posting on this topic. Perhaps I should cut and paste the bits and pieces I have posted in previous Medjugorje threads into a FAQ that I simply repost each time this comes up.

[quote=carol marie]But if it was all a big hoax … Was it truly a big lie? That really upsets me … How depressing to think that my interest in the Catholic Church was started on a great big lie
[/quote]

Well, this is a terrific example of how God can permit evil to occur in this world, yet turn that evil into a greater good. I know of many sincere, devout Catholics who have gone to Medjugorje, and while they were there they experienced a sincere spiritual awakening. I have members of my own family who say that it changed them.

However, I would like to make a distinction between the sincere people making the trip, versus the so-called “visionaries” who have become wealthy by creating an entire tourist industry.

I personally believe that a week spent in a local retreat center under the guidance of a good spiritual director could be just as effective, without the airfare. It would also have the advantage of not promoting the continuing disobedience within the Church. There are also recent Marian apparitions that have received full approval from the local Bishop. for example the Apparitions of the Lady of All Nations that occurred in Amsterdam are approved by Bishop Joseph Punt of the Diocese of Haarlem/Amsterdam. Or, another recent apparition was Finca Betania that had the approval of Bishop Pio Bello Ricardo. These are recent examples of apparitions that have been proven to have supernatural origin.

There are two key points to understand. First, and I can quote the Catechism paragraphs if I cared to spend the time, the local Bishop is endowed by Christ with role of “oversight” of the diocese, where “oversight” includes responsibility for both public worship and the religious teaching in the diocese. Thus, the local Bishop is always the source to determine the validity of an alleged apparition. There is not a single case where the Bishop ruled an apparition supernatural or not supernatural that was subsequently contradicted by the Vatican. The Vatican historically respects the teaching authority of the Bishop.

Second, one of the key traits used in determining whether a vision is valid or not is that of obedience. For example, St. Theresa of Avila was given a message by Jesus that her Bishop forbid her to act upon. When she took it to Christ, he explained that if she had a choice between following what Jesus asked her to do versus obeying the Bishop, Jesus would never want her to disobey her Bishop. Instead, Christ changed the Bishop’s heart, and she is now a Saint and a Doctor of the Church.

This is what the local bishop of Medjugorje has to say in a 1997 letter:

  1. On the basis of the serious study of the case by 30 of our ‘studiosi’, on my episcopal experience of five years in the Diocese, on the scandalous disobedience that surrounds the phenomenon, on the lies that are at times put into the mouth of the “Madonna”, on the unusual repetition of “messages” of over 16 years, on the strange way that the “spiritual directors” of the so-called “visionaries” accompany them through the world making propaganda of them, on the practice that the “Madonna” appears at the “fiat” of the “visionaries”,

my conviction and position is not only non constat de supernaturalitate [the supernaturality is not proven] but also the other formula constat de non supernaturalitate [the non-supernaturality is proven] of the apparitions or revelations of Medjugorje.


#19

This letter from Ratko Perić, bishop of Mostar-Duvno (the diocese that includes Medjugorje) dated February 17, 2004 is the most recent official Church statement. It can be found on his diocescan website and makes pretty darn clear his disapproval: cbismo.hr/DHTMLFiles/Opsirnije.asp?P=7

Below is just an excerpt from his conclusion. It is worth reading the entire document.

…Regarding Medjugorje, there’s a real danger that the Madonna and the Church could be privatized. People could start contriving a Madonna and a Church according to their own taste, perception and deception: by not submitting their reason as believers to the official Magisterium of the Church, but rather forcing the Church to follow and recognize their fantasy.

…There are at least 6 or 7 religious or quasi-religious communities, …, which have arbitrarily been installed in Medjugorje without the permission of the local Diocesan authorities. These communities are more a sign of disobedience than a real charisma of obedience in this Church!

There exists a problem in this diocese of Mostar-Duvno which in recent years has practically precipitated into a schism. At least eight Franciscan priests, who have rebelled against the decision of the Holy See to transfer a certain number of parishes administered by the Franciscans to the diocesan priests, have been expelled from the Franciscan Order and suspended ‘a divinis’. In spite of this, they have occupied at least five parishes through force, and continue to exercise sacred functions. They invalidly assist at marriages, hear confessions without canonical faculties and invalidly confer the sacrament of confirmation. Three years ago they even invited a deacon of the Old-Catholic Church who falsely presented himself as a bishop, to preside at a confirmation and he “confirmed” about 800 young people in three parishes.

…The Church, from the local to supreme level, from the beginning to this very day, has clearly and constantly repeated: Non constat de supernaturalitate! No to pilgrimages that would ascribe a supernatural nature to the apparitions, no shrine of the Madonna, no authentic messages nor revelations, no true visions!

This is the state of things today. How will things be tomorrow? We’ll leave them in God’s hands and under Our Lady’s protection!

I’ve also noticed that the Mostar-Duvno website is unreliable. You may access the letter today and then find the website doesn’t return a page tomorrow (or vice versa).

A copy of the letter is also cross-posted at unitypublishing.com/Newsletter/BishopPeric2004.htm


#20

Bob you realize, of course, you may have done it…:wink: We could be deleted once again. :banghead:


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