Holy Spirit leads only the CC?

Does the Holy Spirit only lead the Catholic Church or does he also lead all the non-Catholic churches? The Holy Spirit guides into all truth (John 16:13), why would he lead churches differently? (question is more about the church (group) level not the individual level)

Hi

It is God Allah who guides the humanity. Who provides the food the world over? none but God Allah. Likewise God Allah leads and guides the humanity the world over. The Holy spirit in my opinion is just a servent of God Allah, it has to obey the commandments of God Allah and it cannot deny when it been ordered to do something.

How you know that the Catholic clergy is guided by the Holy Spirit? Kindly explain viz a viz the Buddhists.

I love Buddha and Krishna as I do love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

Why would He not use all Christian traditions, regardless of the human errors in any or all of them?

As a Lutheran, I can see the work of the Holy Spirit in the CC, the Orthodox and many protestant groups, as well as my Lutheran Church.

Jon

The Holy Spirt inspires all who respond to the love of God and live lives of gospel love. All genuine love and goodness comes from God, through His Holy Spirit.

Howdy

Allah, you mean like ELoHIM

The Holy spirit in my opinion is just a servent of God Allah, it has to obey the commandments of God Allah and it cannot deny when it been ordered to do something.

I believe the three persons of the Trinity work together.

How you know that the Catholic clergy is guided by the Holy Spirit?

I don’t know about each and every Catholic cleric, but as a group I know that the gates of hell and the lies of the devil won’t prevail against the CC for it is the church Christ founded.

Kindly explain viz a viz the Buddhists.

Don’t know much about Buddhists…they follow the big Gautama or something like that.

Only the Catholic Church has the assurance of Jesus himself that the Holy Spirit will guide it. “I will ask the Father and he will give you another Paraclete to be with you always, the Spirit of Truth.” John 14:16.

Because sometimes I feel like some Christian traditions are not being led into truth (eg, Episcopals and practicing homosexual priests and bishops) whereas other traditions are being led into truth (eg CC, immaculate conception, infallible).

As a Lutheran, I can see the work of the Holy Spirit in the CC, the Orthodox and many protestant groups, as well as my Lutheran Church.
Jon

IMO individual Christians in any tradition can certainly be relating to the Holy Spirit, but at the level of a whole church/tradition is for example the Holy Spirit leading both Catholics to the truth of transubstantiation while at the same time leading Lutherans to the truth of consubstantiation (is it the Lutherans that believe consubst?) ?

The Holy Spirit leads all that follow the Great Commandment, whether they know it or not.

The OP is referring to churches and not individuals.

Lutherans have never used the word Consub, simply because it is another Aristotelian attempt to explain the mystery. Luther said that in, with and under the bread and wine are the real and substantial body and blood.
Personally, I prefer the words of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession: that the body and blood are delivered and received with that which is seen, the bread and wine.

I believe that the HS is leading both Lutherans and Catholics (and others) into the truth that scripture tells us in His own words: Take and eat, this is my body. But even Christians who, for whatever reason, deny the real presence are being lead to the truth of Christ crucified, regardless of our perception that their Churches have truth mixed with error. You and I feel that way about each other, as well, though I would never deny that the HS is moving the CC just as clearly as He moves in my faith tradition.

Jon

John I don’t believe certain aspects of church teachings would be considered truth. I don’t believe the Holy Spirit led the Catholic Church into the truth that the Pope was infallible. That was one person declaring himself infallible and others believing it. That’s not a truth. Likewise I don’t believe the Holy Spirit is leading certain Evangelicals into the truth of what they preach. It’s their own interpretation of what they think scripture is saying.

If we look at what all Christian churches have in common then I think that’s where the Holy Spirit is providing guidance.

Is that what you think really happened?

Have you read the documents of Vatican I, and read their source materials - the documents that they were quoting from? It seems to me that there has always been a latent understanding in the Church that the buck stops at Peter’s Chair, and that God was always protecting Peter’s Successor from promulgating error.

They didn’t always use the word “infallible,” but it seems as if there has always been an understanding that if the Pope defines and declares a dogma, then, by the promise of Christ that the Church cannot fall into error (Matthew 16:18-19; Luke 10:16), we know securely that it is a true dogma. :slight_smile:

Your interpretation is very narrow. Possibly due to a stict interpretation and teachings of your particular parish or priest. The priest in the catholic church I attend RCIA at says that is not the case. The Holy Spirit can move all of us. My desire to explore the CC is a product of the Holy Spirit. There are alot of laymen interpretations but reading the Sacred scriptures show that the Holy Spirit is avaialbe for all of us.

Yes I have read the documents and yes that is what really happened. If you do a good study of church history you will see that the office of the pope getting established as a pontificate happened around 440 when Sixtus died and Leo was elected to take over. Leo was very instrumental in centralizing the governing structure of the Roman Catholic church. It was Leo who used the argument that not all the patriarchates were equal and that they should follow or converge to Peter. Valentinian III issued the decree that recognized the primacy of the bishop of Rome. So in actuality it was more political.

They didn’t always use the word “infallible,” but it seems as if there has always been an understanding that if the Pope defines and declares a dogma, then, by the promise of Christ that the Church cannot fall into error (Matthew 16:18-19; Luke 10:16), we know securely that it is a true dogma. :slight_smile:

But the Pope never issues an infallible statement unless he believes it’s an already widely held view. And that certainly does not make it infallible.

All of which seems like it happened way before Vatican I, so you can hardly say that Vatican I “invented” the idea and then just somehow “made” everyone believe it (this is the Catholic Church; have you been around us, at all? We don’t exactly just “believe” new, unheard-of stuff that comes out of nowhere) - it seems as though all Vatican I did was give Pope Leo’s idea a name.

But the Pope never issues an infallible statement unless he believes it’s an already widely held view. And that certainly does not make it infallible.

That’s one of the criteria, yes, but it’s certainly not the whole picture. There’s a lot more to it than, “Well, this is popularly believed, so I’m going to establish it as a Dogma of the Faith.”

Here’s what the Church teaches:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Hi NDfan,

It interesting fact, which often comes up when Catholics discuss Papal Infallible, is that according to Cardinal Newman it was a bad idea for Vatican I to dogmatically define Papal Infallibility. And yet, Cardinal Newman nevertheless considered Papal Infallibility to be a correct teaching.

Well done and yes, my RCIA priest highlighted this for me. I have said on other forums that protestants (as long as they adhere to the abc of the faith, etc) personally and within their faiths are saved - as it says here - BUT the fullness of the faith does the belong to the Catholic faith - and you should all know and realize that.

The catholic church is the mother church - and the foundation of the beliefs of all the rest come from you. There may be divisions and disagreements after this - regarding interpretations and traditions - but that is bound to happen - as children leave the fold this occurs.

The american protestants put an american and cultural spin on the practices, but wisdom regarding interpretation still belongs from whence it came - The CC.

Isn’t it wonderful that Protestants and Catholics have a place to communicate without burning down each other’s churches? The Holy Spirit is certainly in “our” midst when we dialogue and respect each other with love as we search for the Truth.:slight_smile:

Merry Christmas everybody!:christmastree1:

Well said, a blessed to Christmas to you.
Jon

PS Welcome to CAF

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