Holy Strippers?


#1

I've had this discussion many times with people and yes..I'm going there but not to disturb you but because I'm quite a curious cat. Could strippers be holy? Many times people would tell me 'striping is immoral' or 'its the work of the devil' and so forth. So yes my fellow people of earth, is a stripper considered immoral? And if so how?


#2

Can we agree that the intention of a stripper is to provoke lustful thoughts in the audience. That does not seem like “holy” behavior to me.


#3

It's immoral because:
[LIST]
*]It objectifies and demeans women
*]It demeans human sexuality
*]It's main intent is to produce lust, not love
*]It leads others into sinful behaviour
[/LIST]

Now, can a stripper be a nice, church-going person? Yes. Can a stripper be a good provider and family person? Yes. However, being good and nice isn't what makes someone holy. Being in God's grace and living a pure and chaste life dedicated to living God's Will makes you holy. Stripping is an action which is considered sinful and separates someone from God's grace. Therefore a stripper cannot try to become holy until he/she stops stripping and receives absolution.


#4

Someone who repeatedly has people tell them something without believing it is more than just curious. Tell me, what prompted the question really? Are you thinking of becoming a stripper yourself? Have you had a bunch of people telling you the opposite - that stripping IS holy? Or what?

Do you feel the need to question other things people tell you in this way? Are you the sort of person who wonders whether 2+2 really does equal 4 every single time? Or whether the sun really does rise in the east and set in the west every single day?

I don’t find your question disturbing, I do find it nonsensical.


#5

The occupation of stripping? no. An individual woman? possibly.

We know, of course, that the means don't justify the ends, but a lot of well meaning people aren't aware of this piece of truth. So, a mother,perhaps,who is this close to being on the streets, might not be completely guilty of inciting lust if she honestly believes this is THE only resort. We know such an occupation is a grave concern in and of itself, but her desperation and love for her family may well tone down her culpability.


#6

Taking off clothing in a public place with obviously immoral type intent in public places where this is offered as 'entertainment' is certainly grave matter to my mind. It is a social evil to my mind. That is my objective personal assessment of a situation that exists in our society.
However, two other conditions for mortal sin and they are "full knowledge and full consent" and involve the subjective element in mortal sin for one. Whether these are present, only God knows.

It is worth noting this paragraph too in the Catholic Catechism relating to grave matter and/or mortal sin:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#1856
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

Many of our saints had serious sin and/or sins in their past. They did repent and go on to become saints and very holy people recognized as such by The Church. The call of The Gospel is to repentance and penance (conversion of life and sorrow for sin). What did spring to mind is what Jesus has said :Matthew 7:3
"And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?"

Every person in existence has the potential for holiness and is called to holiness by God and offered by God the Grace necessary to be holy. Whether in free will they respond to that call and Grace offered is another matter and a personal one that nevertheless has an affect and effect on the whole of creation in Catholic Church teaching. Sin is never purely personal, it also has a social element.

Its not our business, not our call from God, to state this type of person can be holy and this type of person cannot. We don't know.


#7

[quote="Miguelita, post:5, topic:289739"]
The occupation of stripping? no. An individual woman? possibly.

We know, of course, that the means don't justify the ends, but a lot of well meaning people aren't aware of this piece of truth. So, a mother,perhaps,who is this close to being on the streets, might not be completely guilty of inciting lust if she honestly believes this is THE only resort. We know such an occupation is a grave concern in and of itself, but her desperation and love for her family may well tone down her culpability.

[/quote]

Well stated.

Where a woman with a family is in such a desperate situation that she feels she is driven into the situation as the only resort, it may well be/might be more of an indictment of a society itself, especially a wealthy society claiming a high level of Christianity or Christian type values and morality.
Who knows- and we don't, after all our hard work into our Christianity and for many years, if not our whole life, we may find a stripper sitting in the 'row in front of us' in Heaven. There is that Parable of The Workers in The Vineyard. drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=20&l=1#x

And what Jesus had to say - Matthew Chapter 25 V34 - 46
drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=25&l=41#x


#8

You are talking about culpability, not sin and holiness.

Her need to feed her family and relative understanding of the sinfulness of the behavior may make her more or less culpable to the sin, but the behavior itself is objectively sinful. Sinful behavior is not holy behavior.

A stripper, prostitute, drug dealer, thief, murderer, cheat, liar, fornicator or adulterer is not a holy person. They may be more or less culpable for their behavior, but they are not holy.

Prior to Jesus, personal holiness was defined as how one observed the Mosaic law and how one worshipped. Jesus redefined holiness in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 through 7. According to Jesus in the sermon on the mount, personal holiness is measured in how we treat each other.

Taking one’s clothes off for men who pay money to be incited for lust is using another human being for your personal gain. The stripper uses the man for money and the man uses the stripper for sexual fantasy and gratification. Blessed John Paul II taught that using another human being is the opposite of loving them. Use is the opposite of love.

Using another human being is not holiness.

-Tim-


#9

[quote="TimothyH, post:8, topic:289739"]
You are talking about culpability, not sin and holiness.

Her need to feed her family and relative understanding of the sinfulness of the behavior may make her more or less culpable to the sin, but the behavior itself is objectively sinful. Sinful behavior is not holy behavior.

A stripper, prostitute, drug dealer, thief, murderer, cheat, liar, fornicator or adulterer is not a holy person. They may be more or less culpable for their behavior, but they are not holy.

Prior to Jesus, personal holiness was defined as how one observed the Mosaic law and how one worshipped. Jesus redefined holiness in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 through 7. According to Jesus in the sermon on the mount, personal holiness is measured in how we treat each other.

Taking one's clothes off for men who pay money to be incited for lust is using another human being for your personal gain. The stripper uses the man for money and the man uses the stripper for sexual fantasy and gratification. Blessed John Paul II taught that using another human being is the opposite of loving them. Use is the opposite of love.

Using another human being is not holiness.

-Tim-

[/quote]

The Lord calls sinners, but to repentance, not to continue what they are doing.

We may find a former stripper in heaven, but if someone was shot in the act of stripping (and died unrepentant) her chances to get to heaven are not high.


#10

I have very little sympathy for so-called hard luck prostitute/strippers. There's a lot of other jobs out there that do not involve mortal sin, and they choose to pass up every single one, go for the easy way out, and wax on about how hard their life is. Sorry, not buying it. There's a lot of single females who manage to feed their families without resorting to underhanded tactics.

Also, gender equality. Very few male strippers. If men can make it in the world, then so can women.

It is possible for a stripper to be a good person, without a doubt, but they are living in sin. And there is no real excuse for their behavior.


#11

I don't know walking into a church.

"Hey Father, this is my new girlfriend Summer" and leaning in and side-hand whispering "...she's an exotic dancer." ;)

Yeah....I'm sure the church elders will be looking at me as a nice boy.:D:p


#12

[quote="LaGatoTobey, post:1, topic:289739"]
I've had this discussion many times with people and yes..I'm going there but not to disturb you but because I'm quite a curious cat. Could strippers be holy? Many times people would tell me 'striping is immoral' or 'its the work of the devil' and so forth. So yes my fellow people of earth, is a stripper considered immoral? And if so how?

[/quote]

a female stripper, by leading men to engage in an objective mortal sin (masturbation), can be holy? If you willingly participate in the act that leads another to commit a mortal sin, do you not sin?

A stripper cannot be holy in that each time the commit the act of stripping they are committing the sin. If they are Catholic, then they must know it is wrong and are committing a mortal sin. So they need to go to confession, and I imagine any priest is going to tell her to choose another profession.


#13

[quote="kbwall, post:10, topic:289739"]
I have very little sympathy for so-called hard luck prostitute/strippers. There's a lot of other jobs out there that do not involve mortal sin, and they choose to pass up every single one, go for the easy way out, and wax on about how hard their life is. Sorry, not buying it. There's a lot of single females who manage to feed their families without resorting to underhanded tactics.

Also, gender equality. Very few male strippers. If men can make it in the world, then so can women.

It is possible for a stripper to be a good person, without a doubt, but they are living in sin. And there is no real excuse for their behavior.

[/quote]

That's a disgusting attitude. Just saying. You have no idea WHAT a articular persons situation is! How do you KNOW they passed up another job or only wanted to take the easy way out? YOU DON'T.


#14

[quote="Miguelita, post:13, topic:289739"]
That's a disgusting attitude. Just saying. You have no idea WHAT a [articular persons situation is! How do you KNOW they passed up another job or only wanted to take the easy way out? YOU DON'T.

[/quote]

I know it because other jobs exist? And that many men make it without stripping (it is a lot harder for a man to become a stripper than a woman). And that many women can make it along just fine without having to resort to underhanded tactics.

I'm sorry you find it so disgusting that I do not buy into the whole 'play the victim' card.
[/quote]


#15

[quote="kbwall, post:10, topic:289739"]
I have very little sympathy for so-called hard luck prostitute/strippers. There's a lot of other jobs out there that do not involve mortal sin, and they choose to pass up every single one, go for the easy way out, and wax on about how hard their life is. Sorry, not buying it. There's a lot of single females who manage to feed their families without resorting to underhanded tactics.

Also, gender equality. Very few male strippers. If men can make it in the world, then so can women.

It is possible for a stripper to be a good person, without a doubt, but they are living in sin. And there is no real excuse for their behavior.

[/quote]

I used to be a taxi driver in a city that had strip joints. I got a lot of business from people in the sex industry and the gay community. That was because I treated everyone who got in my vehicle with dignity and respect. My job was only to get them from A to B.

What I can tell you, kbwall, is that from your pious answer you have no clue where people come from, what they have gone through, or why they are doing what they do and under what constraints, their own and those of others. Yours is, from my viewpoint, an astonishingly nieve reply. You are, as far as I can tell, coming from a position of clueless judgement. based on piety, not experience, love, mercy, or anything the makes me think of the inclusiveness that Jesus displayed. Go and be with the people you criticize for weeks on end and see what you see. You may not change your mind, but at least you will have some real experience of what you are tossing off about.


#16

I used to be a taxi driver in a city that had strip joints. I got a lot of business from people in the sex industry and the gay community. That was because I treated everyone who got in my vehicle with dignity and respect. My job was only to get them from A to B.

What I can tell you, kbwall, is that from your pious answer you have no clue where people come from, what they have gone through, or why they are doing what they do and under what constraints, their own and those of others. Yours is, from my viewpoint, an astonishingly nieve reply. You are, as far as I can tell, coming from a position of clueless judgement. based on piety, not experience, love, mercy, or anything the makes me think of the inclusiveness that Jesus displayed. Go and be with the people you criticize for weeks on end and see what you see. You may not change your mind, but at least you will have some real experience of what you are tossing off about.

Well said, especially about the love, mercy and (all embracing) inclusiveness of Jesus.
I read an article not all that long ago that Jesus never tackled problems including social problems on a social level. He dealt with individuals and unique individuals, each with their own story and coming from their own story and he entered into community and communication with them without prejudice or exclusions of any kind. In fact He was accused of dining with prostitutes and sinners and one of His own apostles had been the lowest of the low in His society at the actual time that Jesus calls him to follow Him. Matthew was a tax collector.


#17

The deliberate act of creating illicit sexual excitement is objectively sinful. It is morally damaging to the stripper and her audience. There really isn’t an objective calculus for determining whether an individual is “holy” or “immoral”, though. Someone who repeatedly and unrepentantly sins would probably not be considered “holy” by most standards, but strippers are created in the image of God just like everyone else.


#18

[quote="Non_sum_dignus, post:17, topic:289739"]
..... strippers are created in the image of God just like everyone else.

[/quote]

Yes, darned if even religious fanatics and bigots aren't as well. You are right. Ain't one of us who isn't. And that comes, as far as I'm concerned, before any religious tenet or dogma. Thanks for your contribution.


#19

The fact that we’re all made in the likeness of God doesn’t change the fact that our behavior can be objectively sinful and extremely destructive to ourselves and the people around us. While sin doesn’t change our nature, it does tend to cut us off from the best parts of our nature.


#20

Wasn’t Mary Magdalene a prostitute? (“Hair dresser”)

In any event, how about between husband and wife? There you go, that’s a good exception. :slight_smile:


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