Homosexual politics?


#1

How should the catholic teachings on homosexuality be applied? Should we allow it for secularists and non Catholics who think it is ok as long as we are not forced to agree? How should I talk about this in political debates in a way that a secularist will understand, agree and not think I am bigoted and misinformed?


#2
  1. Hou live here too, and you have just as much right to state your opinion as they do.

  2. Because this is an issue of natural law, which governments should follow, and relates to the family, which society should support since the family provides the continuation of society, the Church enjoins us to work *against *these redefinitions.

  3. Talk about it in a way that does not bring in religion. IOW, you are not basing your argument on the fact that God says Nything aboit this, bit on the objective and secular fact that changes to our ideas of family are inimical to the continuation of society.

Let me add that you do not have to go out there and do it, or even engage if others bring it up. But if you want to do so, or if you want to be prepared, then do some research and have a plan of the points you want to make.

If you read through some of the threads here on that topic, you will probably get a good idea of what to say and how to counter some of the replies you would get.

Don’t be afraid to tell someone you don’t know but will look into it or think about their point and get back to them! And then you can ask particular questions here :slight_smile:


#3

I think we have to avoid slicing and dicing the issue. What prevents us from being straightforward about the teachings of the church? Fear someone will reject us or feel the teachings are. foolish?

It's a simple matter of saying hey, thios is what we believe, you can either accept it or not. There is no "in-between".


#4

I would never talk about homosexual politics with someone who isn’t a devout Catholic; they just wouldn’t understand. Yes, by modern morals anything less than absolute acceptance and celebration of homosexuality, will appear like you’re a prejudice bigot. I have a coworker who is a lesbian with a lesbian spouse and two beautiful sons that were conceived artificially. I can’t tell her that her family is wicked.


#5

*I have a coworker who is a lesbian with a lesbian spouse and two beautiful sons that were conceived artificially. I can't tell her that her family is wicked. *

Leave the children out of it. According to St. Paul, as a sodomite she is still wicked.


#6

She brought her children into her wicked “marriage.” My heart aches for them; I can only imagine the issues they will have to face. She encourages them to talk to me because I suppose I come off as a “clean cut” man. And I show them her boys lots of respect and love. I work in a VERY Liberal Progressive environment, so I think everyone assumes I share their morals. There is one other Christian at my workplace and we keep our faith to ourselves.


#7

** There is one other Christian at my workplace and we keep our faith to ourselves. **

Yes, it is ironic that being a Christian you will be the victim of people who are judgmental of your religion because your religion is said to be judgmental of them.

This is the occasion when St. Francis said we should preach the gospel, but only use words when necessary. Your kindness to the children is a way of evangelizing them, even when you cannot reach their parents.


#8

I find this whole debate rather contrary to catholic doctrine, especially the advise given by the apologists, furthermore i find the way in which you approach these people more than just harsh, but contrary to the teachings of the saints..
Shunning people is something that reminds me of the movie "Jesus camp", and its behavior i believe has no place in any healthy, moral Christian,s thoughts, words or acts.
Who are you to say that his/her sins are greater than yours?

youtube.com/watch?v=XFkTGMr2ad8

Even Pope Benedict XVI condemned violence against homosexuals, both in speech and in action
"10. It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law"

Reflect instead on these words of our lord:
Matthew 7: 1- Do not judge, and you will not be judged;
2- because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you.
3-Why do you observe the splinter in your brother's eye and never notice the great log in your own?
4-And how dare you say to your brother, "Let me take that splinter out of your eye," when, look, there is a great log in your own?
5-Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother's eye.

Mark 2:17 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners
Timothy 2:24-The servant of the Lord must be gentle to all.

And if you are interested you can view my personal views on the matter.
jigsawkill.deviantart.com/art/Nostra-Ecclesia-344346864?ga_submit=10%3A1356288342&ga_type=edit&ga_recent=1

Blessings.


#9

lucius
**
I find this whole debate rather contrary to catholic doctrine, especially the advise given by the apologists, furthermore i find the way in which you approach these people more than just harsh, but contrary to the teachings of the saints..
Shunning people is something that reminds me of the movie "Jesus camp", and its behavior i believe has no place in any healthy, moral Christian,s thoughts, words or acts.
Who are you to say that his/her sins are greater than yours?**

This is the usual liberal claptrap and hypocrisy ... harshly judging the righteous for being harsh in their judgment of wicked people. According to this theory, Paul should be harshly judged for his letter to the Romans.

Letter to the Romans 1:18-32:

“The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes. Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.”

Was Paul a Catholic or wasn't he? Was Paul not a saint?


#10

[quote="LVCIVS_DEI, post:8, topic:312102"]
I find this whole debate rather contrary to catholic doctrine, especially the advise given by the apologists, furthermore i find the way in which you approach these people more than just harsh, but contrary to the teachings of the saints..
Shunning people is something that reminds me of the movie "Jesus camp", and its behavior i believe has no place in any healthy, moral Christian,s thoughts, words or acts.
Who are you to say that his/her sins are greater than yours?

youtube.com/watch?v=XFkTGMr2ad8

Even Pope Benedict XVI condemned violence against homosexuals, both in speech and in action
"10. It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law"

Reflect instead on these words of our lord:
Matthew 7: 1- Do not judge, and you will not be judged;
2- because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you.
3-Why do you observe the splinter in your brother's eye and never notice the great log in your own?
4-And how dare you say to your brother, "Let me take that splinter out of your eye," when, look, there is a great log in your own?
5-Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother's eye.

Mark 2:17 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners
Timothy 2:24-The servant of the Lord must be gentle to all.

And if you are interested you can view my personal views on the matter.
jigsawkill.deviantart.com/art/Nostra-Ecclesia-344346864?ga_submit=10%3A1356288342&ga_type=edit&ga_recent=1

Blessings.

[/quote]

Nicely done...but it won't fly with many here as you can already see.


#11

Christians can judge. As Jesus said in John 7:24, “Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.”

Saint Paul, writing to the Corinthians about a case of incest, teaches us our duty to judge, and even to judge harshly if need be. “It is widely reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of a kind not found even among pagans—a man living with his father’s wife. And you are inflated with pride. Should you not rather have been sorrowful? The one who did this deed should be expelled from your midst. I for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgment on the one who has committed this deed….” (I Corinthians 5:1-4)


#12

I fear you are all so blinded by anger and pride you will not even listen reason anymore.
But i forgive you, and i will pray for you all.

And forgive me for being so blunt but this sounds more like something that one would see on FOX news rather than a Catholic forum.


#13

I fear you are all so blinded by anger and pride you will not even listen reason anymore.

Pardon me, I thought you were dead set against being judgmental.

*And forgive me for being so blunt but this sounds more like something that one would see on FOX news rather than a Catholic forum. *

Most of the people on FOX news ARE Catholics.

I'm so sorry you condemn the views of St. Paul on sodomy. I will pray for you too, that you will become a scriptural Catholic instead of a cafeteria Catholic.


#14

I do not condemn anything, you are just putting words in my mouth, or twisting them to suit your own needs.

Matthew 7:
1- Do not judge, and you will not be judged;
2- because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you.
3-Why do you observe the splinter in your brother’s eye and never notice the great log in your own?
4-And how dare you say to your brother, “Let me take that splinter out of your eye,” when, look, there is a great log in your own?
5-Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.


#15

I do not condemn anything, you are just putting words in my mouth, or twisting them to suit your own needs.

I don't need to twist them. You have already twisted them.

The passages you quote from Jesus refer to hypocrites who judge others for the same sins they commit.

When St. Paul judged the sodomites and the incestuous in the passages I cited above, he certainly was not a sodomite or himself guilty of incest.

Why are you so self-righteous about not judging others when Jesus himself tells us to judge, but to judge justly in John 7:24, “Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.”


#16

We usually don't think of St. Paul as a prophet,
but his prophecy in Romans posted above
is coming true before our eyes.


#17

I live only 80 miles from Lubbock so I am very aware of the religion (basically Baptist) and politics practiced there (mostly far right).

But I think that many put their politics before their religion, if they are amoung the few Catholics living there.

There have even been people dissgreeing with the Holy Father. in this thread. Indeed who is the cafeteria Catholic the one who agrees with the Holy Father and majestrium or the one who places politics either right or left at first place.

The church says that homosexaul sex acts are mortal sins, and the orientation is one temptation amoung others. There are not a few chaste Catholics who have SSA, you would never know that from this thread.

Yes I am not popular in my town, for I rock the boat, neither Baptist "non-denomiational" and not a tea party memeber.


#18

[quote="Charlemagne_II, post:15, topic:312102"]
I do not condemn anything, you are just putting words in my mouth, or twisting them to suit your own needs.

I don't need to twist them. You have already twisted them.

The passages you quote from Jesus refer to hypocrites who judge others for the same sins they commit.

When St. Paul judged the sodomites and the incestuous in the passages I cited above, he certainly was not a sodomite or himself guilty of incest.

Why are you so self-righteous about not judging others when Jesus himself tells us to judge, but to judge justly in John 7:24, “Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.”

[/quote]

I am just saying his words are misinterpreted.
In Greece at the time it was considered normal for a man to take a boy as a lover, so he was speaking about pedophilia and rape.
That is what ST Paul was condemning, and that is an abomination.

"Remember my brothers and sisters, the founder of holy mother church might be irrefutable, the human interpretation of its clergy is still anything but, and this is the reason why in the past teachings where revised by them where it was necessary, Such as the case of usury which was officially condemned and forbidden in the Third Lateran Council in 1179 AD, and later removed by Pope Benedict XIV in 1745 AD.

(Before that Catholics where banned from lending out money at interest)

The revision of doctrine is after all no shame, quite the contrary actually.
Because every time the children of the holy mother church recognize that the teachings should be revised they get a step closer to the truth, their creator, and the redemption of all benevolent people on God's good earth"


#19

Ok, what is a Cafeteria Catholic?


#20

[quote="LVCIVS_DEI, post:19, topic:312102"]
Ok, what is a Cafeteria Catholic?

[/quote]

"anyone who has beliefs that I don't agree with"


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