Homosexuality And Why The Church Is Wrong


#1

The only reason why I'm writing this is because I'm sick and tired of being called 'evil' just because of my sexual orientation.

I strongly believe I'm a loving person. I love my life, my family and friends. ALL human beings are creatures of love, no matter what they are attracted to.

At the end of the day that's all it is, a sexual orientation. Just because I'm gay doesnt mean I'm 'evil'. I'm tired of the Catholic Church in particular persuading people that it's wrong. It is not, nor has it ever been.

In reference to another thread about gay couples being allowed to adopt, to quote one of this websites answers "Adoption is for the benefit of the child involved". Are you saying a child is better to be in a foster home rather than be adopted by a same-sex couple? I am telling you that any child would be lucky to have two dads or two mothers.

Homosexuality is not contagious, its not caused by mothers 'loving' their child that bit too much. I was born this way.

I always wonder why the Church continues this mentality, when thousands of people (teenagers in particular) are committing suicide because they can't live with being gay because YOU are telling them they are evil?

I know the chances of a half decent rebuttal to this is slim, but I had to let you know my opinion.
-Johnny


#2

Hey that's the way it is for Catholics...perhaps you'd be more comfortable as an Episcopalian?


#3

[quote="Carolus_Martell, post:2, topic:274037"]
Hey that's the way it is for Catholics...perhaps you'd be more comfortable as an Episcopalian?

[/quote]

:confused: Wow! That's a rather flip and uncharitable answer. :eek:


#4

I am a Catholic, and I find nothing wrong with homosexuality. There is no reason you cannot be a Catholic and disagree with the Pope,.

The Pope, after all, is the one who first said you have to listen to the Pope to be Catholic. Sounds pretty convenient to me.

Jesus appointed Peter, and his successors, as leaders of His Church. That does not mean they have the authority to tell you what to believe and how to think. You can be a perfectly good Catholic and disagree with Church doctrine, despite what people on this forum will tell you.

I am a happily married heterosexual Catholic, but I personally think that homosexual relations inside a lifelong, monogamous loving marriage is any different than relations between a sterile married heterosexual couple. If anyone has any logical reason why this is not true, I would be glad to listen. So far I have heard none.


#5

You are not evil. People are not evil. Just their choices.

the act of homosexuality has been condemned by God from the beginning of sin. You can see this in Leviticus. Because God condemns the ACT of homosexuality, the Church condemns the act of homosexuality.

Why dosn't God like it? Because it is an offense against love. Sex is a sacred thing made by God to 1. unite a married man and woman and 2. to create life. A man and a man nor a woman and a woman can create life. Therefore it is an offense against love and in turn, against God who is love.


#6

[quote="Johnny760, post:1, topic:274037"]
At the end of the day that's all it is, a sexual orientation. Just because I'm gay doesnt mean I'm 'evil'.
-Johnny

[/quote]

Of course it doesn't. You are a child of God and don't let anyone make you think you're not.

However, it does mean that you may be called to a life of celibacy. Being gay is not the sin. Doing gay is.

We all have our crosses to bear in this earthly life. Mine is not this particular cross, so take my comments for what they're worth to you. I'm sure there are others on these forums who could actually be of some help. Just know that there are many of us here who will be keeping you in our prayers that you will bear the cross you've been given with dignity and honor. And we also ask the same prayer from you regarding our crosses.


#7

The Church does not say YOU are evil; it is the behavior that is wrong. It is wrong on many levels (and I don't pretend to be intellectual enough to be able to articulate them) but one of which is that it goes against the natural order. God designed love, attraction, etc. for the procreation of the human race. A man & a woman are attracted to each other, fall in love, get married & have children. That is what God designed. And it is a perfect design; unfortunately the designed plan is put into action by humans and we invariably fail & make mistakes. So homosexual behavior serves absolutely no purpose in the continuation of the species. It is a a selfish way of saying "I like this, I want this, and I'm going to engage in it, period". You speak of homosexual "couples" adopting; I can say that this confuses youngsters about their sexuality. Rosie O'Donnell was talking about a situation in which a little girl was asking her 2 "moms" why they were together & what did "gay mean" , and why was there was no Dad; when they explained that they loved each other and that they and some other people "liked' girls and not boys and wanted to build a life together, the little girl exclaimed "Well then I am gay because I love Heather (her little friend)! And instead of correcting this child, the "moms" and Rosie thought this was wonderful! I know this is an isolated instance but you get the point. You say you were "born this way" and there is nothing you can do about it. Forgive me but I feel that is a way of justifying this & copping out. I was born an alcoholic; doesn't mean I have to go on drinking. Pedophiles feel they were born that way, doesn't make it right. Homosexuality is unnatural, and will always be so. But the Church loves you, and does not call you evil. It is the behavior that is wrong.


#8

[quote="Johnny760, post:1, topic:274037"]
The only reason why I'm writing this is because I'm sick and tired of being called 'evil' just because of my sexual orientation.

I strongly believe I'm a loving person. I love my life, my family and friends. ALL human beings are creatures of love, no matter what they are attracted to.

At the end of the day that's all it is, a sexual orientation. Just because I'm gay doesnt mean I'm 'evil'. I'm tired of the Catholic Church in particular persuading people that it's wrong. It is not, nor has it ever been.

In reference to another thread about gay couples being allowed to adopt, to quote one of this websites answers "Adoption is for the benefit of the child involved". Are you saying a child is better to be in a foster home rather than be adopted by a same-sex couple? I am telling you that any child would be lucky to have two dads or two mothers.

Homosexuality is not contagious, its not caused by mothers 'loving' their child that bit too much. I was born this way.

I always wonder why the Church continues this mentality, when thousands of people (teenagers in particular) are committing suicide because they can't live with being gay because YOU are telling them they are evil?

I know the chances of a half decent rebuttal to this is slim, but I had to let you know my opinion.
-Johnny

[/quote]

Johnny,
You must separate the inclination to homosexuality and acting on the inclination. If anyone condems you for your inclination then they are utterly wrong. An inclination towards homosexuality is like any other temptation.
I cannot go along with the idea that to be gay is a perfectly normal aspect of sexuality because it flies in the face of the natural order of things.
To indulge in active homosexuality is to misuse the gift of sexuality from God. Sex is a God given gift that enables mankind to participate in God’s incredible power of creation. It wasn’t meant as an end in itself, which is what sex between same sex couples is. In purely natural terms homosexuality can never be a legitimate expression of sexuality because it is so manifestly unnatural. The very act is a parody of the real thing. The relationship is both sterile and self-indulgent. Homosexual activity is a sin because it goes against what God intended sex to be used for and the urge to practise it is a temptation like any other.
I agree that a small percentage of people may be born with an attraction to their own sex, but for a male or female to have a mating instinct for someone of their own sex must surely be a defect in that person and could not possible be the way God intended it.
Many people are born with defects, spin bifida, cleft pallet and Down’s syndrome for example, but no one argues that those defects should just be accepted because they were born with them. That is how I see homosexuality and people have to face up to and deal with it in the same way any defect in human beings is dealt with.


#9

The catholic church does not now, nor has it ever taught that the status of being attracted to members of the same sex makes one "evil." Quite on the contrary, catholicism teaches that ALL human beings are fallen and experience varying levels of attraction to doing things that are wrong. The temptation to gay sex is no more fundamentally evil than the temptation of a straight guy to commit adultery. The difference is that there is no organized movement seeking to declare adultery a moral good!

What the church teaches is that homosexual contact is morally wrong because it is inherently harmful to all involved. You stand in judgement of the Church because you haven't examined your underlying assumptions. We've all grown up in a culture that says that our REAL selves are spiritual and that our bodies are just containers. But that's an absolutely foreign idea to catholicism. Catholics believe that we are a union of body and soul. Both parts make up who we ARE, the the physical signs are meaningful manifestations of deeper realities.

The church recognizes throughout salvation history that humans are created and ordered towards certain relationships and that order is visible in our very bodies. Marriage (actual marriage) is known to be divinely instituted because it is both extolled in revelation and is verifiable in the observed nature of the relationship: it is ordered towards the creation, care and nurturing of new life.

Our current culture though, has been denigrating the nature of marriage for 90 years now (ever since contraception was given a social makeover and declared to be good, not evil). By attempting to sever procreation from the deepest meaning of marriage, they unintentionally made "feelings" the only basis of marriage. By that measure, you are right, it IS unjust to deny 'marriage' to gay couples. But that isn't the right measure. As contraception has been societally embraced, marriage has collapsed because a foundation of feelings isn't enough. Marriage only works when it is based on the REAL definion: a union of self-sacrificing love so profound that it is ordered towards bringing forth new life. Marriages based on this flourish, marriages based on feelings die off quickly.

You display a unexamined assumption that the suicide rate of homosexual persons is based on society's failure to embrace them for who they are. This is fallcious on two fronts:
1. Studies have shown no significant reduction in the rates of homosexual self-destructive behavior (suicide, substance abuse, domestic violence rates, clinical depression) in relatively friendly societies (Amsterdam and NewYork, IIRC) compared to more traditional areas. Wish I could remember the article, but you'll find it if you look.
2. There is not a similar correlation between suicide and OTHER socially disapproved characteristics. Even in the Jim Crow South, I don't believe I ever heard of high suicide rates among black people when they were oppressed for who they were. Why gay people and not others? Consider the possibility that the act itself is inherently harmful to the human soul which manifests itself in other problems. In church talk, we say "sin begets more sin." Worth thinking about.

Gay people DO have a legitimate beef with the way they've been treated by christians, I'll grant you that. It's human nature. Everybody likes to exaggerate the horror of sins they personally aren't inclined to. Makes them feel better about their weaknesses in sinful areas they ARE inclined to. Gay sex isn't the uber-sin that ends the world. It's just one more nail in the cross added to the billions pounded in by straight people. In the end, we all need forgiveness and a Savior. But we can't have either if we aren't willing to repent of our sins.

UNFAIR! you say. It's true, that it seems unfair. I have no easy answer for you. But based on what sexuality is and what it is for, there is no healthy outlet for gay desires. But zooming out a moment, that's no more unfair than many other aspects of this world and burdens others have to carry. I don't expect any of this to convince you, but I hope you get a little educated beyond the simplistic rhetoric of "catholics are bigoted and ignorant."


#10

Being a Catholic, and calling yourself Catholic, are two different things. Nancy Pelosi calls herself a Catholic, so did Ted Kennedy. I’m sorry, but they don’t resemble what I know to be Catholic. To be a practicing Catholic, means there are certain dogmas that you must believe. Now anyone can call themselves a Catholic. There are people who say they are Catholic but support abortion. To be a true Catholic means you adhere to the dogma & doctrines of the Church. It is not okay to be a “cafeteria Catholic”. Taking this dogma, leaving that one, a little bit of this belief, none of that. I don’t blindly follow the Pope like some automaton; however, I converted to this faith because I agree with her teachings, and wouldn’t have done so if I didn’t. There are plenty of other faiths you can belong to which may more closely resemble your beliefs; Episcopalian comes to mind. But the Catholic church believes homosexual behavior to be a grave sin, and that is the way it is. I sincerely don’t want to be uncharitable, but it is the “Catholics” who pick & choose doctrines to follow, that make the Church and those of us who devoutly practice our faith look bad . It saddens me because I love this Church so much. As far as a logical response to your point re; same sex marriage, try this one on; because it renders the term marriage meaningless. Why not have plural marriage, or let’s say animal/human marriage. I mean what does marriage mean anyway? Marriage is a sacred institution, a union between one man, and one woman. The possibility to create life is always there, even with sterility. With 2 men, or 2 women, there is no possibility for such. Our society has been built on this premise. Marriage has already been terribly weakened by “no fault” divorce, same sex “marriage” will further weaken it to the point where it is virtually meaningless. And society will pay the consequences.


#11

I am sorry but I agree with the person who said that maybe you need to check out the Episcopal "church". We have enough rebellion and heretics in the Church already! If you want to follow what YOU believe rather than what the Divine Church instituted by Christ teaches, leave.


#12

[quote="ReginaCoeli, post:7, topic:274037"]
The Church does not say YOU are evil; it is the behavior that is wrong. It is wrong on many levels (and I don't pretend to be intellectual enough to be able to articulate them) but one of which is that it goes against the natural order. God designed love, attraction, etc. for the procreation of the human race. A man & a woman are attracted to each other, fall in love, get married & have children. That is what God designed. And it is a perfect design; unfortunately the designed plan is put into action by humans and we invariably fail & make mistakes. So homosexual behavior serves absolutely no purpose in the continuation of the species. It is a a selfish way of saying "I like this, I want this, and I'm going to engage in it, period". You speak of homosexual "couples" adopting; I can say that this confuses youngsters about their sexuality. Rosie O'Donnell was talking about a situation in which a little girl was asking her 2 "moms" why they were together & what did "gay mean" , and why was there was no Dad; when they explained that they loved each other and that they and some other people "liked' girls and not boys and wanted to build a life together, the little girl exclaimed "Well then I am gay because I love Heather (her little friend)! And instead of correcting this child, the "moms" and Rosie thought this was wonderful! I know this is an isolated instance but you get the point. You say you were "born this way" and there is nothing you can do about it. Forgive me but I feel that is a way of justifying this & copping out. I was born an alcoholic; doesn't mean I have to go on drinking. Pedophiles feel they were born that way, doesn't make it right. Homosexuality is unnatural, and will always be so. But the Church loves you, and does not call you evil. It is the behavior that is wrong.

[/quote]

And another thing I would add. It also condemns heterosexual behavior before marriage including living together. This is something the Bishops and priests need to emphasize too.


#13

No one said you are evil. People said homosexual actions are disordered and sinful.

This is a heavy topic and you touch on SO much that it's almost impossible to hit all of your concerns... but I felt it was important to point out that no Catholic who knows the teachings of the Church thinks that those with SSA are evil. We believe homosexual actions are disordered, we don't believe the person committing those actions is evil.


#14

If I remember it right didn't Jesue tell Peter who's sins you bind on earth are bound in Heaven and who's sins you forgive on earth are forgiven in Heaven?


#15

Hi Johnny:

I think you may have a very large misunderstanding of the Church stance on homosexuality. I am unaware of the Church calling anyone out as evil. Do you have some friends, or something who have misrepresented our position? Perhaps T.V. Shows? Movies? They all do that in abundance, because there is some hatred going on here. It is the hatred of the Gay lobbies and political activists, and their blatant, bigoted and unfounded hatred of the Catholic Church.

Here’s the thing. ALL persons, whether homo or hetero sexual in nature, are called to chastity, with the one exception of a married man and woman who are open to the gift of life. It’s that simple.

Now almost everybody I’ve ever met has fallen short of this calling in some way or another. The Catholic ones among us, who are properly catechized, recognize when they have done so, and are contrite, repent, and ask for strength to not fall again. This cycle is present whether we are homo or heterosexual in our attractions and temptations to break chastity.

Unmarried men and women who have sex with each other are guilty of fornication.

A married man or woman who has sex with a member of the opposite or same gender outside of their marriage are guilty of adultery.

A person who brings about a sexual act by self manual stimulation is guilty of masturbation

Persons who have sex with members of the same sex are guilty of homosexual sex.

All of these are regardless of ones natural or environmental condition or pre-disposition, or whether or not they were born that way, or whatever other factors one wishes to throw out there. These are all sinful and shameful acts which require contrition and repentence in order to be forgiven.

Having said all this, no person should judge another person. These are judgements of God we are talking about. We should all encourage each other to remain chaste. We should all help each other to avoid the temptations, and in the post-modern world, nearly the mandate by progressives that everyone needs to be having sex with everyone else at nearly every opportunity.

Persons should also make every effort to avoid defining themselves by their sexuality. That is not who we are. Yet I’ve heard people actually say, “I’m so and so. I’m gay.” I think that if I went walking around announcing to people that “I am Steven. I’m a heterosexually oriented man called to the vocation of holy matrimony, and open to life during the marital union with my spouse”…that people would look at me like I have a screw loose.

There is a licit sexual union which is shared between a man and a woman who are called to the vocation of marriage, and are open to the possibility of children at the will of God. This is the only licit sexual union.

All other forms of sex are illicit and sinful.

We are all sinners. This doesn’t mean that we should hate each other. It means we need to love each other. We need to know that all other persons are suffering with the same frustrations, temptations, and difficulties that you are.

It is the rare bird who truly embraces their chastity, and respects it. It is a beautiful thing to behold in man, woman, hetero or homosexually oriented. It is the most incredible state a person can aspire to. No distractions to the love and service of the Lord.

Haters need to stop. No Catholics or other Christians should be hating homosexuals. Homosexuals should not be hating the Church. We are all called to the same thing. We all need to find a way to help each other to achieve heaven.

Anyway, May God bless and help you on your journey. I’ll pray for you. Please pray for me.

Yours in Christ,

Steven


#16

[quote="littlebum2002, post:4, topic:274037"]
I am a Catholic, and I find nothing wrong with homosexuality. There is no reason you cannot be a Catholic and disagree with the Pope,.

The Pope, after all, is the one who first said you have to listen to the Pope to be Catholic. Sounds pretty convenient to me.

Jesus appointed Peter, and his successors, as leaders of His Church. That does not mean they have the authority to tell you what to believe and how to think. You can be a perfectly good Catholic and disagree with Church doctrine, despite what people on this forum will tell you...

[/quote]

:confused: Um...


#17

[quote="Johnny760, post:1, topic:274037"]
I know the chances of a half decent rebuttal to this is slim, but I had to let you know my opinion.
-Johnny

[/quote]

A rant completely skews the Church's teaching on same sex attraction, which ends with this kind of remark?

I call troll. :rolleyes:

I'm happy to engage people in charitable discussions, but yeah, until I see a sign of good faith from the OP's end... troll.


#18

[quote="Johnny760, post:1, topic:274037"]
The only reason why I'm writing this is because I'm sick and tired of being called 'evil' just because of my sexual orientation.

I strongly believe I'm a loving person. I love my life, my family and friends. ALL human beings are creatures of love, no matter what they are attracted to.

At the end of the day that's all it is, a sexual orientation. Just because I'm gay doesnt mean I'm 'evil'. I'm tired of the Catholic Church in particular persuading people that it's wrong. It is not, nor has it ever been.

In reference to another thread about gay couples being allowed to adopt, to quote one of this websites answers "Adoption is for the benefit of the child involved". Are you saying a child is better to be in a foster home rather than be adopted by a same-sex couple? I am telling you that any child would be lucky to have two dads or two mothers.

Homosexuality is not contagious, its not caused by mothers 'loving' their child that bit too much. I was born this way.

I always wonder why the Church continues this mentality, when thousands of people (teenagers in particular) are committing suicide because they can't live with being gay because YOU are telling them they are evil?

I know the chances of a half decent rebuttal to this is slim, but I had to let you know my opinion.
-Johnny

[/quote]

What in the world? Johnny, several people were very nice and helpful to you in the other thread that you started about SSA. You acknowledged that those ppl were both nice and helpful. what could have happened to make you lash out in this way?

As other posters have already said, the Church does NOT say that you are evil because you have homosexual feelings. This post of yours is unfortunately filled with pain, hate, and misinformation. Perhaps if you can tell us why you are saying these things, someone can talk you through it.

Be strong, brother. Stay true to Christ and His Church.


#19

It is hard to deal with people that make claims about Church teachings while they are wrong because of their ignorance. Lack of truth or lack of charity when sharing the truth is very damaging and hurtful.
First you have to realize that the Church teaches that we are made in the image of God thus nobody is evil. Evil by its own definition is departure from God, and our nature does not change.
Second you have to realize that some terms used in the common language have somehow different definitions from person to person and the Church uses her specific definitions in such a way that they are not subject to misinterpretation even if they might sound weird. In the case of this specific topic the Church calls same sex attraction a tendency that people have independently of their will. There is no willful choice into being sexually attracted to a person of the same sex. Because of the lack of the participation of the will the individual is not culpable for his feeling of attraction.
The bottom line of the first two considerations is that if you are a person having same sex attraction you are not evil and you are not doing anything evil either.

Now we can switch to behaviors and the Church teaches that behaviors can be evil because they can separate us from God. Any sexual behavior outside the bond of marriage is evil. If in the secrecy of my own privacy I gratify myself sexually then I commit evil whether I fantasize of a person of the opposite sex or of my own sex. That action goes directly against the nature of a sexual relationship within the realm of the marital life and the goals of the marital life. People that shack up (as in having physical relationships) with a partner, whether it is of the opposite sex or of the same sex, commit evil acts. People that get married just to have sex for it gratifying purpose but they do not have the intention of living the true married life are committing evil too.

I think that for some people it is easy to completely shun someone that has same sex attraction whether he is or is not sexually active. Just because it is easy that does not mean that it is dignified or just.
I completely agree with the Church teachings about same sex attraction and homosexual behavior, and as a Christian I understand that God gave the authority to the Church to teach the truth about it.
I also work with a few men and women who live an homosexual lifestyle and I do not approve of that but I still treat them with the same love that I show to everybody and I respect their intrinsic dignity. I never discuss their choices because there is no reason to do that, the same way I do not discuss the domestic partnerships of some other colleagues. The bottom line is that I am not a better person because I am a sinner too, and if I hurt people pushing them away from the truth because of the way I present it then I condemn myself to hell too. Personally I tend to be more sympathetic with a person that has same sex attraction because of the frustrating difficulty of having a proper gratifying sexual life than being sympathetic to someone that wants to shack up with an opposite sex domestic partner.


#20

Dear Friend in Christ,

As a woman who can trace her homosexuality as far back as when I was 5 yrs. old,who has spent many many years living as an "out" lesbian and who has always loved the Church and God even when I didn't think they loved me-I understand your frustrations.

As that same women who had to make a painful decision to seek Truth no matter where it led, I have come to a place of not only accepting but embracing the Church's teaching on how we are called to live our lives. ( and JPII's theology of the body played a big part in that. )

I am not responding to your post to try and persuade you of anything. Only to let you know that I am praying for you and that prayer includes the hope that you will set out to find Truth and to pursue her earnestly and with a sincere heart. If you decide to do so and are willing to accept Truth no matter the cost, you will find Truth.And if you then decide to live in Truth you will find freedom like you've never known and peace-within yourself and the Church.I pray that you will pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance.

When I decided to search for Truth, I knew it would mean putting aside what I thought my experiences had shown me about truth. I was willing to do so because more than my sexuality, more than the years of self-discovery and affirmation, more than even the woman I was in love with-most important was my relationship with God. And I had to know if I was living in Truth. As I set out, I thought that I might end up where I started and prove that I was right- you were right- we were right and the Church was wrong. But in putting God first, I also knew I'd risk turning my world upside down and that of a wonderful woman.

God is Truth, and we are promised that if we seek God with sincere hearts, we will find Him. With a truly opened heart and mind, I came to understand the truth of what the Church teaches and WHY. And the peace and happiness I found years ago when I accepted myself and "came out" pales in comparison with the peace and joy I have from living in Truth.
Wherever your journey leads you, remember the Church does not call you evil.Again, I'll keep you in my prayers.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.