Homosexuality: are we taking the right stand?

Hi,

I have some questions about homosexuality and the church, I have spent a lot of time meditating on them and wish to see what answers christian people have for them.

Let me start off with, of course, by stating that the Bible is very clear on homosexuality. We all know what it says. Which is fine, because God makes the rules, not us. I also want to put out there that these are presented from a point of view that homosexuality is a biological condition, and not a conscious choice.

Here are my questions:

Let’s start with marriage…

Obviously it is becoming legal no matter what, but is it our place to be making those crucial life decisions for someone else anyway? Should it be left between the individual and God and out of the hands of strangers? Are we over-stepping a right to free will which was given to us by God himself by disallowing homosexual marriage? Their union would not have to affect you or your family after all, unlike murder, in which case, yes, that should be illegal.

Even if that’s true, another fear to consider is if this would open the door to other areas like bigamists and familial members to have their wishes fulfilled through a legal marriage. Or would we stop at homosexuals? Is there any way to know the answer to that? I can live in a wold of in which exists same sex marriage but when it starts being OK for my blood related uncle or a man with 3 other wives to start hitting on me… I don’t think I can swallow that one.

I have also been told, obviously, that the legalization of homosexual marriage would ruin the sanctity of marriage. I question this because to me that’s a little bit like saying the invention of the grapple (grape apple hybrid thing) or whatever fruit they’ve mutated together ruins all the true grapes and apples out there. However despite having grapples, if you bite into an apple you still have an apple, unchanged by the mere existence of an unnatural version. It doesn’t seem to me that the existence of two men considered married by the state would have to also ruin a man and a women’s union through the church and considered married by God. I think God has a little bit more authority than any state to say who’s marriage is a marriage.

The answers to some of these questions I have, I believe, aren’t as important than this one:

I know a lesbian, and one night she came to me in tears saying that she had been kicked out of at least 6 different churches just for being gay. She didn’t go in advocating anything, or holding hands with another girl, she just wanted to come to mass like everyone else.

Instead, she got told she was a sinner, unclean, going to hell, and any and all sort of terrible thing you can imagine.

Something doesn’t seem right about that… christian people seem to have a lot of hatred for homosexuals and I don’t understand why. Aren’t we suppose to NOT have hatred in our hearts? Isn’t that one of the main points of the religion? Is my friend not a child of God?

Why do christian people appear to be so hateful? No wonder the world doesn’t respect us, and unless I find that that is not true for a large portion of the community I will lose respect for it as well, because judgment and hate are not suppose to be present in our christian lives.

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my ideas/questions. I’d like to stay with these and not stray away in other areas, I can see some other things these bring up that can become another post.

Thanks again.

I wish the Church was. They could drop their assault on gay marriage and focus on things they DO have control over, like sacramental marriages or vocations to the priesthood.

Some odd, dissident priest or even bishop out there somewhere could attempt a same-sex nuptial Mass. I don’t think it’d fare well with some, but eh, I’d like to see him try.

Frankly, we should be taking the right stand, if you ask me.

A true spirituality necessarily is going to be involved with the issues of the world, with the issues of society, of the poor, of politics. When you cut off the human issues, the issues of suffering and society, in fact, you have cut off the soul. Human issues hold the key to your own shadow, what you are afraid of, what you deny, and what you hate. The marginalized, those of other races, religions, ideologies, and gender usually hold a gift for us. That’s why homosexuality is threatening to people. In many ways it is the last taboo.

In the homosexual person we have the image of the masculine and the feminine put together in one person. That’s why we are terribly afraid of gays and lesbians. They are the image of what we all need to integrate, the contrasexual. We’ve all got to put the masculine and feminine together within ourselves. We are so terrified by that wholeness, that those that represent it are hated in most cultures based on domination and patriarchy.

Interestingly, more holistic cultures such as Native Americans and Asiatics have no taboo against the homosexual. These cultures recognize more easily the mystery and paradox of all things human.

The True Self, who we objectively are in God, is prior and superior to any issues of gender, culture, or sexuality, which are all “accidental” to one’s foundational core as a child of God. This is why it is pure heresy to call a transgendered, gay or lesbian person “Intrinsically disordered.” The intrinsic foundation of the human person is given by God and untouchable by any human intervention whatsoever. Gender is a combination of biology, psychology and personal history, which are all good and necessary entrance points to the temple, but spirituality is learning how to live in the temple itself (1 Corinthians 3:16-17). What makes spirituality precisely “spiritual” is that it connects us with the Core and the Center, not just the circumference; with the essence and not just the accidents.

Really? Have you shared this view with gay people? I imagine that gay men would insist that they are not contrasexuals – they are just as much **men **as straight men. And the same with lesbians. Sexual orientation is not a matter of intersexuality.

Opposing homosexuality–a a very grave sin–is not “hatred” as you suggest.

And, as far as how SSM affects our marriages, do you recall that “we are one body in Christ”? And, 1 Corinthians 6:18 “Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.”

Also, not exactly the same but related, 1 Corinthians 6:15-16 “Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute?”

Of course, as Pope Francis said, your lesbian friend shouldn’t have been excluded from worship in Church, but I am a bit suspicous of what you say she said:

I know a lesbian, and one night she came to me in tears saying that she had been kicked out of at least 6 different churches just for being gay. She didn’t go in advocating anything, or holding hands with another girl, she just wanted to come to mass like everyone else.

Just how did these churches know that she was gay, insulting and excluding her, if she didn’t display her sexuality? She had to be doing something for these people to know her orientation, IMO.

I agree that the Church needs to be MUCH more sensitive and loving toward individual homosexuals. But I’m not sure that it makes much sense to support secular gay marriage. It’s not an issue of discrimination, and I don’t see what positive reasons there are for gay people to be allowed to marry each other. If sexual relationships among homosexuals are wrong, they are also damaging. (This is the nature of sin). Why should we specifically normalize such relationships through the force of law?

:popcorn:

No one is forcing anyone to be a remain an active member of the Catholic Church. There are thousands of different religions one can choose from if what they are looking for is a religion that will tell them whatever they want to hear. Anyone who has a problem with the teachings of the Catholic Church actually has a problem with God himself since Christ (God) is where the Catholic Church gets her deposit of faith.

While your first statement may be true, a lot of people seem to channel it into hatred.

And you also saying that, for example, someone else’s sin would diminish my goodness or vise versa? If I hold the door open for an old lady but someone else slams it in her face, is my holding the door open somehow tainted by what that other person did? After all you said “Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.” would that mean that they wouldn’t be hurting anyone but themselves? I’m more concerned about the hate than that, though.

Also, my friend simply doesn’t like to hide who she is. She wears mens cloths and is open about being a lesbian. She wasn’t in the church advocating for it like I said, but she didn’t hide it either.

I want to know why there is so much hatred among members of the christian faith.

So basically you’re saying that homosexuality is a normal human function but it is fear that is putting it in the shadows but it needs to be integrated because that is the only way we can become whole in our spirituality.

What about the Bible? If you believe that it is the word and ultimate command of God, where did all this come?

Maybe I didn’t understand your reply properly.

That’s very true, and I know that whatever problems people have with him, God can take it.

However, I have more of a problem with how christians treat homosexuals. Because it doesn’t seem to be good.

Dressing in mens clothes when you are a woman can be seen as living the lifestyle, i.e. actively sinning and demonstrating that publically. Although I wouldnt think that alone would warrant removal, I wouldnt expect to be given the Eucharist either. Could there be more to this story that your friend isnt telling you about?

Truth be told, this isnt who your friend is. Your friends sexuality is not her identity as a person, she is more than that. IMO if she isnt an active homosexual, she shouldnt give off the wrong impression that she is by dressing as a man.

I think free will is a God given right, at least as far as man’s intervention is concerned. And I also support having a peaceful society where murderers can’t run around because God gave them the free will to murder. But if homosexuals aren’t affecting anyone but themselves, why must we fight so hard to keep these people from exercising the free will they have been given? Shouldn’t that be between them and God and no one else?

But like I said before, I don’t like the idea of bigamy or family relationships even though those don’t affect me either, really… I guess that’s why God draws the line. But I think those things would have a negative affect on our society as a whole because abusive people could stock pile women, or one women could take all the good men ect. and I don’t even need to state the problems with familial relationships. But two people minding their own business? I’m not sure about that.

As for normalizing it… there are millions of things already normal in our society that aren’t normal in the church and have not become normal in the church and will never become normal in the church, that’s what I’m saying. We won’t be affected, just take a less hateful view, maybe.

That’s my point though, in order to be accepted homosexuals have to hide who they are and be ashamed or else be shunned by the christian community. Why should they live in such shame and fear and not be loved and help come to accept themselves and God’s word?

Maybe there is more to the story, she tends to be a loud person. Even so, I don’t think those churches took the right actions. They seemed to assume that she was automatically going to hell, and that she was some kind of disgusting monster and not a child of God who happened to be born differently and who deserves love and guidance like anyone else.

Marriage is not a matter of a right to **act **in certain ways. Homosexual activity is already legal. Marriage represents the normative social structure of a society in relation to its children. It DOES affect others. In particular, it affects the children of the marriage.

As for normalizing it… there are millions of things already normal in our society that aren’t normal in the church and have not become normal in the church and will never become normal in the church, that’s what I’m saying. We won’t be affected, just take a less hateful view, maybe.

Look, it’s perfectly possible not to be hateful without accepting gay marriage. And I agree that many Catholics aren’t good at this. But some people will feel rejected simply because I don’t support gay marriage – if that is the case, they have no right to call me hateful. I simply have a different idea of marriage than they do, and I think my idea of marriage is more beneficial to the *children *of America.

I agree with you, people don’t have to agree with homosexuality but I do think that they have to accept that they are children of God none the less.

I was hoping not to touch the issue of children, but it is probably unavoidable. I once dated a boy who had lesbian moms. He said that gay couples fight more than straight couples, and that came from him as a non-christian. What other sort of harm do you think this could do to a child? Because plenty of straight couples argue and fight a lot, too.

Thats the thing, I fully reject the premise of their sexuality defining who they are as a person. They dont have to hide who they are as a person, but their attraction isnt it. Humans are more than who they are attracted to.

If BDSM is a temptation/attraction for me, I dont have to give the impression that I am apart of its subculture and active in it by dressing publically in BDSM fetish clothes if that isnt the case.

I agree with you %100. Now how do you communicate this to the members of the church who seem to out right hate someone for that for having that be apart of who they are? I’m not sure if being gay inclines someone to act differently or if that is a cultural thing.

Very good points.

Small knitpick again, sorry. But that’s what we keep ping ponging back to each other and apparently we agree - that isn’t who they are. The CCC says their condition is a trial, not their identity.

Probably by referring them and reminding them of this paragraph:

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Honestly though, I have not witnessed any Catholics on CAF or in person who have acted or spoken through hate to oppose homosexual lifestyles.

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