Homosexuality

Hello.
I am not a member of the religious community, so do not belong here. I am an Athiest. And before you ban me from this forum, how about you allow me to have a little discussion. I am rather open minded, and will not be offended.

Here’s my question; Do you, and why do you, hate homosexuals and other members of the LGBT community. I understand that “the bible tells you too”, but the bible was written a rather long time a go, and has frankly, outdated beliefs when compared to today. Second of all, your religon is based apon love, right? So why hate someone based on something that means a lot to them.

here’s some quotes:

“The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” - Mark 12:31

“Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.” - Romans 12:9

Even if you see homosexuals as your enemy, read this:

“But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.” - Luke 6:35

Thank you, I look forward to reading your responses.

I don’t know of any rule here that bans atheists from participating in CAF. I think the one rule that exists is that, since this is a Catholic forum, that you respect our beliefs – that doesn’t mean that you have to agree with them…but it generally means no cheap shots.

Anyway, welcome.


I am probably one of the most outspoken here on the subject. I do not hate homosexuals. I believe that homosexuality (that is, the tendency of one to be sexually attracted to a member of the same sex) is disordered. The reason why I say that it is disordered is because if the desire is acted upon, the act is always sinful…there are no possible mitigating factors involved that would make it not sinful. More on that in a minute.

I have eminent respect for those who have same sex attraction but who choose to act in accordance with the laws of God and the laws of nature (that is to restrain those desires).

As for the act of sodomy itself, it is a violation of both the laws of God and is a violation of the laws of nature. You, yourself, have quoted from the Bible, so it’s apparent that you have the ability to look appropriate sections of Scripture up. I’m certain that you are intelligent enough to understand the biological purpose of sexual relations and that sodomy, being a simulation of those acts, is utterly impossible to achieve that purpose. It is impossible for a sodomite act to be fecund.

As far as loving one’s neighbor, how is closing one’s eyes a loving act? How is ignoring something that will inevitably result in them roasting in hell forever loving?

There’s more…but I don’t know where you want to go with this, so I’ll just throw it back to you…

Your question makes no sense and your bible quote is not applicable since the Catholic Church does not hate homosexuals nor see them as an enemy. So, maybe you could rephrase it or explain what you mean when you use the words “hate” and “enemy”.

Actually, if you take time to look around the threads where homosexuality is discussed, I think you’ll find that no one is expressing hate toward people who are homosexual. I’m quite new to the forum, and I haven’t seen it so far. I have real-life friends who are gay, and I certainly don’t hate them or consider them my enemies. I also believe that God loves homosexuals, as he loves all his children.

However, the Bible does state that the homosexual “act” is sin, as are any number of other things we humans choose to do.

It’s especially difficult when you personally know and care for someone who is gay, and you know they only want to find someone to love, and who loves them, yet you realize that God doesn’t approve. In those instances, I pray.

:banghead:

From the Catechism:
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. **This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. ****They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. **Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. (2358)

Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (2359)

2359 is also applicable to any unmarried persons, or those married but separated with a living spouse. God asks the same of all people: to follow his plan for their lives.

How about, before you make assumptions about our actions, or motives (referring specifically to your quip about us banning you immediately) how about you actually take a moment to look around the forums. Some of our most active members are atheists, and we all enjoy the discussion we have with them, so long as everyone remains civil, of course.

It is also readily apparent that you have either never read nor heard the Bible, or you have willfully misinterpreted what is contained within it. We are not told to hate homosexuals, quite the opposite, we are to love them as our brothers and sisters, pray for them, and seek to lead them to God, just like every heterosexual.

Loving, however, has nothing to do with whether or not we’re accepting of homosexuality. In fact, the fact that we love these people is exactly why we teach against engaging in homosexual actions, this is also why we teach against engaging in sex outside of marriage, masturbation, etc. God designed sexuality in a very specific way, which is readily apparent to anyone who takes two minutes to read a biology book, and when people misuse, abuse or flat out reject that purpose, they are in essence actively rejecting God. Rejection of God is what results in damnation, so, by teaching against things which reject God, we are trying to lead people to follow God and achieve eternity with him.

We do love them, and that is why we seek to guide them to God, just as we would seek to guide you to God, because we also love you, as a fellow child of God.

You should stick around for a while; everyone here loves discussion, and will gladly engage with you, so long as you remain respectful (sorry, but this post isn’t very respectful in its opening)

If you actually are asking why Catholics must hate homosexuals, I have good news for you. Not only do most Catholics NOT hate homosexuals, but our faith actually forbids us from hating them. If someone told you that Catholics hate homosexuals, they were misinformed.

If your actual question is, “Why does the Church teach that homosexual sex is wrong?” that is another story. The Church teaches that sex is extremely important. It is designed to be the physical renewal of the sacrament of matrimony. It’s purpose is not merely for pleasure, but to secure the bond between married persons and allow them to produce a family. Homosexual acts are a perversion of that act, just as is any sex act that is not unitive and procreative and between two married persons. It is demeaning to the dignity of a person to use them for one’s own pleasure, even if the person is willing.

You might be wondering why we feel we have any business in having a position and opinion about peoples sex lives and sexual preferences… Catholicism maintains a clear vision of the purpose of human sexuality and its primary place in our understanding of what it means to be human and subordinate to but loved immeasurably by our Father in heaven. Catholicism views us all, every single person, as brothers and sisters in a family and values the family dynamic above all dynamics that humans experience relationship wise. We know that without universal esteem for the institution of family the worth of people is devalued. Supporting relationships that reject one sex or the other… or supporting relationships that aren’t committed to lifelong indissolubility… or supporting relationships that reject children is to diminish the truth of the family.

To approve of or esteem those sorts of relationships and fail to preach the truth in regards to the importance of family is to do others a great disservice for the sake of being politically correct or being praised. That’s not love.

Waffle-

There’s something that you have to realize about our perspective regarding any behavior, we necessarily, not merely because the Bible says so, but by a true and objective morality, not merely believe but know that there is behavior which is necessarily worse and behavior which is necessarily better. This rational discernment to discriminate against the worse in favor of the better is the foundation of all rational thought.

You are an atheist because you have decided that atheism is better than believing in God.

Does it follow then if we immediately accused you of “hating” God and all Christians or theists in general? No, of course not.

We make this judgment of behavior, any behavior and not just homosexual acts, based on rational premises. And we also separate behavior from persons because we greatly desire to follow the teaching of our Lord, “hate the sin, love the sinner.”

So we believe that it is better not for people to indulge in or commit homosexual acts rather to indulge in them.

Thus we believe that it is also worse for those who do indulge in such sins to further corrupt their already worse state and worsen it by institutionalizing their sin by claiming a so-called “right” to marriage.

That in no way means that we “hate” people who indulge in such sins. It would be as absurd to say that we “hate” someone convicted of murder or rape, etc. The Church holds that Redemption is offered to all, especially the worst sinners amongst us, so long as the desire for repentance is there.

Is it “hate” to desire people to live better lives than they are currently living? I think not.

Hi there, since you quoted the Bible I noticed you left out these passages , was there any reason why you did not mention the following.

The Bible doesn’t speak of homosexuality very often, but when it does, it condemns it as sin. Let’s take a look.

•Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
•Lev. 20:13, “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them”
•1 Cor. 6:9-10, “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
•Rom. 1:26-28, “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.”

Homosexuality is clearly condemned in the Bible. It undermines the basis of God’s created order where God made Adam, a man, and Eve, a woman – not two men, not two women – to carry out his command to fill and subdue the earth (Gen. 1:28). Homosexuality cannot carry out that command. It also undermines the basic family unit of husband and wife, the God-ordained means of procreation.

Unlike other sins, homosexuality has a heavy judgment administered by God Himself upon those who commit it - and support it. This judgment is simple in that those who practice it are given over to their passions - which means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins.

“For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error,” (Rom. 1:26-27).

As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing. They will not seek forgiveness. They will die in their sins and face God’s holy condemnation. But, that isn’t all. In addition to the judgment of being given over to their sin, those involved in it also promote it and condemn others who don’t approve of their behavior.

“…and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them,” (Rom. 1:32).

So, in their hearty approval of homosexuality they encourage others to be trapped in their sinfulness. This means they will reject Christ’s redemptive work on the cross. Without Jesus, they will have no forgiveness. Without forgiveness, they will have no salvation. Without salvation, there is only damnation in eternal hell. We don’t want this for anyone

Welcome to the forums! Be respectful with your posts and you won’t be banned. There’s nothing wrong with some Catholic-Atheist dialogue in the spirit of understanding and good will.

Here’s my question; Do you, and why do you, hate homosexuals and other members of the LGBT community.

No, Catholics do not hate homosexuals. Catholics don’t hate anyone at all for that matter.

I understand that “the bible tells you too”,

No, the Bible does not tell us too. It tells us quite the opposite. I’ll explain this below.

the bible was written a rather long time a go, and has frankly, outdated beliefs when compared to today.

The is a fallacious approach. Just because something is old, doesn’t mean it isn’t true. After all, Truth has existed from all eternity and it will never cease to be true. What was true 2000 years ago was always true and will always be true. (unless, of course, you are a relativist who doesn’t believe that truth is objective, but that’s for another discussion. The question of objective truth, as I’m sure you know, is a central point of contention between Christians and Atheists and must be addressed before we can make any progress)

Second of all, your religon is based apon love, right? So why hate someone based on something that means a lot to them.

Our religion is indeed based upon Love itself - Jesus Christ.

We don’t hate homosexuals - but we do hate the sin of homosexuality. Much like we don’t hate alcoholics, but we do hate the sin of alcoholism.

Why do we hate homosexuality? Because it is a disordered expression of human sexuality. It goes against the procreative end of the sexual act. For a sexual act to be moral, it must always be between a man and his wife, and must be open to the prospect of creating a new life - a baby in God’s own image and likeness. The homosexual act cannot, by its nature, achieve this end. Therefore, it is a disordered act.

That being said, Catholics are opposed to the sin of homosexuality - not the homosexual person. A person is not defined by his or her sins. The Church cannot support a sin - in this case homosexuality - simply because committing that sin “means a lot” to the homosexual. Should the Church have supported the Holocaust because it “meant a lot” to Hitler? You see, when an act is objectively disordered, the Church must take the moral stand and condemn such acts as immoral, regardless of the subjective feelings of the parties involved. However, Catholics are called to be loving towards homosexuals and help them in their struggle - not by encouraging their sins, but by supporting them and aiding them in their spiritual journey.

here’s some quotes:

“The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” - Mark 12:31

“Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.” - Romans 12:9

Even if you see homosexuals as your enemy, read this:

“But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.” - Luke 6:35

Thank you, I look forward to reading your responses.

If I have been clear in my above explanations, you will see how a Catholic would apply these Bible verses to a scenario involving a homosexual person. In order to truly love someone, you must help them overcome obstacles. For example, would it be loving to hand an alcoholic a beer when he asks for one - even if he really, really wants one? Of course not. Because you love that person and you want to see him remain sober. Giving him a beer wouldn’t be loving - it would be harmful. Apply those principles to homosexuality. Catholics love homosexuals, but they don’t love the sin of homosexuality. If Catholics did support homosexuality, it would be no different than handing a beer to an alcoholic. Truly loving someone requires guiding them down the safe path, not allowing them to do what ever they want.

Thank you for your post, and I hope my response was helpful.

Good answers so far!

As for me, nope. I certainly don’t hate them! :slight_smile:

Welcome to the forum. Forgive me for being blunt, but we do do not hate homosexuals. We “hate the sin and love the sinner”. This argument has been repeated ad naseum and I share the above posters’ frustration. We love gay people and should treat them as human individuals with the same dignity as anyone else. What you may see as hate is love, protecting them from their sin.

Hey Waffle…We don’t hate homosexuals. I think you have us confused with another religion. You know…the one that beheads homosexuals.

All we ask is a little tolerance on your part about our beliefs on the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

Lol, I chuckled.

Catholics and Protestants do not hate homosexuals; I’ll also throw in that one Church from Westboro as one to send some emails to though.

Sometimes we see footage of that Wesboro Baptist cult on TV providing comic relief in the current affairs shows. No normal person would surely mistake that for Christian teaching.

Love the sin… hate the sinner… no that’s not it…

Love my sins… hate yours, sinner… no that’s not it either…

Oh Yeah… hate the sin, love the sinner… that’s it… but it’s still very hard to do…

AND… we are ALL sinners…

Pope Francis (and every other Pope I’ve ever heard from John XXlll) is challenging us all to get better at this.

We confuse tolerance with acceptance.
Some people seem to think if they tolerate something they are accepting it. So they are intolerant. Not so.
Some people seem to think that if they tolerate something, they should accept it. They are too accepting. Tolerance does not equal acceptance. I think that should be a bumper sticker… You don’t have to compromise your convictions to be compassionate.

Here’s a good quote from Phil Robertson of ‘Duck Dynasty’ fame:
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Thank you very much for the replies, I just wanted another point of view when it comes to the subject.

Also, christus, I meant to offense when I said “the bible was written a rather long time a go, and has frankly, outdated beliefs when compared to today.”. I did not mean that what it teaches is wrong, I was saying that the opinion on what people thought when it was written is outdated. For example, many people used to beleive that the world was flat. This has been proven otherwise. Also, 50 years ago it was bad to be black. Now it is not. Social views change, maybe some were portrayed in the bible.

Glad to see you’re not a “drive by” poster.

As an FYI, it being bad to be black is not a position taken by the Church…even 50 years ago.

The Church has had three popes from Africa: Victor I, Gelasius I, and Miltiades.

The Church has had any number of canonized African saints: such as Charles Lwanga, Saint Antony, St Martin de Porres, St Augustine and his mother, St Monica, St Moses the Black, Sts Felicity and Perpetua, and so on.

The initial ban on the trade of black slaves came from Pope Eugene IV in 1435.

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