Homosexuality


#1

I am currently debating a “Catholic” who insists that Homosexuality is a Trait in humans Created by GOD. That it is no longer considered a Mortal Sin in those who were “created” that way , due to the fact that their conscience tells them that their feelings are not wrong in the eyes of GOD due to their being made to feel the ways they feel. In effect , their conscience is clear to accept the feelings they have. That those feelings , being bred into them by the creator - eliminates their culpability as a result.

Anyone care to respond to this?


#2

Dear Ramman:

I guess I would begin by getting your friend to agree that we are all born sinners. By virtue of our fallen human nature, we all have a tendency toward sin. However, our fallen sinful nature does not give us license to sin.

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat


#3

Rubbish.

Looking at Sacred Scripture alone should be sufficient to lay waste to that claim.

It might be good to point that saying “homosexuality is morally wrong” may be a bit too broad a statement. Homosexual sexual acts are morally evil, not the person. For example, a person who claims to be homosexual (who may have homosexual urges), but who practices prudent chastity of body and mind is not living in sin. This person is no more sinful that the heterosexual single person who is also called to chastity. They are less sinful than the heterosexual person who masturbates. It is when one enters into immorral sexual activity (homosexual, heterosexual, or self-aroused) that they are in sin.

At least that’s how I understand it.

Peace,
javelin


#4

This is just moral relativism. If we all do what we feel is natural and gives us pleasure the world would crash in a day. If thier beliefs are justified only by thier feelings then when does objective reality have the chance to interject. Regardless of how i feel about it GOD made up his mind a long time ago. My bestfriend is gay and i just accept that im not here to judge him, but i am here to give him my honest opinion and perspective becasue im his friend. Iv never hidden my strong faith and in certain situations its an issue but for me i refuse to judge him as i refuse to let him think that his action are condoned by the Lord. Thats my opinion anyway.

Suppression


#5

[quote=ramman50076]I am currently debating a “Catholic” who insists that Homosexuality is a Trait in humans Created by GOD. That it is no longer considered a Mortal Sin in those who were “created” that way , due to the fact that their conscience tells them that their feelings are not wrong in the eyes of GOD due to their being made to feel the ways they feel. In effect , their conscience is clear to accept the feelings they have. That those feelings , being bred into them by the creator - eliminates their culpability as a result.

Anyone care to respond to this?
[/quote]

*So this man says he is a Catholic,huh? Ask him to read Paragraph #2357 thru #2359 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. He will find that the Church says:

  1. The psychological reason for homosexuality is not understood.
  2. Under no circumstances can homosexual activity be approved.
    3.Homosexuals are called to chastity, no sexual activity.

Your friend says that since he has a conscience, he is IMMUNE to Gods Laws. That is just wrong. Sadam Huusein probably had a conscience too. And it told him it is just O.K. to kill thousands and rape and pillage, was that O.K. with God - since Saddam’s conscience said it was alright? Of course not!

Your friend is in error, and may be a heritic. :wave:


#6

That “Catholic” would first have to show me the “homosexual gene,” which chromosome it’s on and what advandage it confers to the bearer.
Then, this person would have to explain how it is that many “homosexual” persons have become heterosexual, usually through faith-based programs.
There are more questions than answers here, and just saying “God did it,” doesn’t make it true.


#7

[quote=ramman50076] In effect , their conscience is clear to accept the feelings they have. That those feelings , being bred into them by the creator - eliminates their culpability as a result.
Anyone care to respond to this?
[/quote]

What does he mean by their conscience is clear to accept the feelings ?

We can always accept our feelings. They are our feelings.
They can guide us towards right actions and wrong actions.

This is the old “If lov’n you is wrong then I don’t wann’a be right.” attitude.

I can clearly accept my feelings of sexual attraction to the lady down the hall. And my fiance’; And the lady in the office nextdoor.

My conscience is clear. I am sexually attracted to women.

Amen.

You may now tell him that he is right.

The Nature vs. Nurture argument is irrelevant.

  • The problem is Adam & Eve…
    Because of the corruption of original sin the world became corrputed.
    Diseases, mental disorders, spiritual disorders.

God wants to reconcile the World to himself through Christ.
Back to the way he made it in the Garden of Eden.

There was no homosexuality in the Garden of Eden.
There was no pedophilia in the Garden of Eden.
There was no promiscuity in the Garden of Eden.
There was no adultery in the Garden of Eden.
etc…

Jesus said :
Matthew 19:11-12He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, but only those to whom that is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”
[font=Arial]Christian teaching has been clear since the very beginning.[/font]
For the sake of attaining the kingdom of heaven, we should avoid all sexual immorality.

Sexuality is moral only in the context of a Mutually Self-giving Marriage between a man and a woman.

God Bless

todd

P.S. For more info - send him to
Courage - a Catholic Ministry for Same Sex attraction.
couragerc.net/


#8
  1. If there were a “homosexual gene,” the homosexual population would have died out through natural selection centuries ago, since they generally do not procreate.

  2. Even if there were a homosexual gene, it would not excuse the behaviour. I have known several persons who I am convinced have a genetic predisposition toward alcoholism. There only hope of staying away from drunkenness is by never consuming a drop of alcohol. It is not easy, but that is what they do, with the help of their friends.


#9

This morning, I was listening to the Family Life Center radio show on EWTN, and they were talking on this very topic, and it was the guest’s opinion (a pyschologist who wrote a book on the topic) that homosexuality was generally a result of the way one was raised. More to the point, he felt it could be “corrected” through specific therapies, and that the younger it was caught, the better.

I recommend checking out the website: www.narth.com

Eric


#10

[quote=ramman50076]I am currently debating a “Catholic” who insists that Homosexuality is a Trait in humans Created by GOD. That it is no longer considered a Mortal Sin in those who were “created” that way , due to the fact that their conscience tells them that their feelings are not wrong in the eyes of GOD due to their being made to feel the ways they feel. In effect , their conscience is clear to accept the feelings they have. That those feelings , being bred into them by the creator - eliminates their culpability as a result.

Anyone care to respond to this?
[/quote]

  1. There is NO scientific evidence that homosexuality is a genetic trait. There was 1 study done over 5 years ago, authored by an avowed homosexual, which claimed to have found a “genetic marker” (to use a simple lay term) for homosexuality. That study has since been repudiated and found to have been severely flawed in design and conclusion. The poor quality of the study was determined not by anti-homosexuals with an axe to grind but by independent scientists.

  2. There is some good evidence to suggest homosexuality is environmental rather than genetic. First let me give an example. Schizophrenia is a mental disease that has a very strong genetic tendency. The way science has been able to determine this is through IDENTICAL TWIN studies (two persons with nearly IDENTICAL DNA). The authors used IDENTICAL TWINS given up for adoption and separated at birth thereby eliminating environment as a cause. What the scientists found was that there was an extremely high concordance rate of schizophrenia with identical twins raised in different environments, showing it was genetically determined. Now when these studies were done regarding homosexuality there was not a significantly increased rate of homosexuality in IDENTICAL TWINS raised in different environments. In other words, if one identical twin was homosexual, the likelihood of his identical twin (who was raised in a different environment) was not significantly greater than would naturally be expected. Therefore it does not seem to be a genetic predetermination. (These studies were done predominantly in the ‘60s and early ‘70s, but isn’t it interesting that they have not been repeated and you NEVER hear anyone in the media or health care professions talk about them?) What probably does exist is a genetic susceptibility in the way that alcoholism has a genetic susceptibility. No one is born an alcoholic but early life traumas and psychological trauma can cause these persons to seek ways to self-treat their psychological pain leading to drug and/or alcohol use. Homosexuality is probably similar either based on different psychological genetic tendencies or different life (psychological) traumas or a combination of the two.

… continued next post …


#11

… continued from previous thread …

  1. Even if we allow for the idea of genetically determined sexuality, it doesn’t mean that God intended homosexuality to be a normal behavior, nor does it effect the morality of it according to Gods law. Let me elaborate. We know that smoking causes cancer, right? In fact we know of many chemicals that cause disease that we are exposed to because of our behavior – our choice. How does smoking cause cancer? The toxins from cigarette smoke are toxic to cells and can cause damage to a cell’s DNA. If the body cannot repair the damage then the cell is GENETICALLY ALTERED and will cause disease. So we have an example of how our behavior exposes us to and contributes to changing DNA, something God didn’t intend but allows in a mysterious way for our growth and His glory. How is that relevant to homosexuality? Well, throughout history there have been innumerable times that fathers, or brothers or uncles or grandfathers have committed the awful immoral act of incest. We can all agree that incest is an immoral act that God didn’t intend but men have chosen to do. This act causes the mixing of DNA that is too closely related and very often leads to offspring with genetic abnormalities. We all are aware that inbreeding of animals causes a host of “in-born errors.” It is extremely possible that in our own human history, one of our own immoral human behaviors, such as incest (but not limited to incest) led to the introduction of a genetic abnormality we call homosexuality. It therefore could be possible for homosexuality to be “in-born” without it meaning that God created it as part of our race. Again let me reiterate that the scientific evidence argues strongly against homosexuality being an “in-born” trait, but even if it does some day turn out to be, it doesn’t change the morality of the issue or Gods abhorrence of it.

  2. Let me make a point from another perspective. I have seen many people born with deformities, from blindness to not having legs or arms. What would you think if one of them went to court and demanded that they have a RIGHT to sight (for those born blind), or to run and jump (for those born without legs) and expected to be given those things based on that right? You’d rightly think they were thinking outside of reality. You might even have the mental clarity to recognize that sight (and legs, arms etc) are a GIFT, not a RIGHT, and we cannot demand to have them anymore than we can demand to have any other GIFT. Our physical bodies are gifts, and even if we have been born without sight we still have the desire to see, or if born without legs we have the desire to run. So just because we have the desire for something doesn’t always mean we are guaranteed a right to experience it. Being hard-wired with a desire for something doesn’t prove it’s something we have a RIGHT to. Sexuality is the same was sight and legs and everything else about our bodies – it is a GIFT not a right. Some people have the gift in a way that it can be fulfilled (heterosexuality) and other don’t have the gift in an expressible way (homosexuality). Those born without the gift are given a cross to carry, just as the blind. They are called to chastity and to bear that cross with love for God and offering it up for humanity knowing that aligning their will with Gods will not only enable their own salvation but for others as well.

It may be relevant that I mention I am a physician (practicing Internal Medicine) and have been an Assistant Clinical Professor at a major southern California university.


#12

There are more homosexuals in the Catholic priesthood, than in America. So they all can’t be bad.


#13

God creates us perfect, disorder, disease, death and the tendency to sin through our desires (concupiscence) are the result of original sin, passed on to us through Adam and Eve, through their free will choice to defy God and choose evil.

If God made homosexuals inherently disordered, then He made diabetics deliberately diabetic, or those born with mental and physical abnormalities deliberately. He deliberately caused genetic mutations that cause disorder and disease, he deliberately caused persons with certain DNA to mate and produce children with a specific mix of genes. All of these suppositions are of course false. Do you really want to believe in a God that tinkers around with his own perfect plan of creation to produce deliberately flawed examples? God does however love us completely, madly, truly deeply no matter how flawed we are for whatever reason.

The other fatal flaw in the “born that way” defense to immorality is that not all disorders are genetic, that is, encoded in the DNA. Most are the result of mutations in a gene, or events happening in utero or during the childbirth process or neonatal stage that cause various problems.


#14

My parents used to call homosexuals “queers” in their day, now they are called gay. Next we will call them Mr & Mrs so and so.


#15

[quote=JimG]1. If there were a “homosexual gene,” the homosexual population would have died out through natural selection centuries ago, since they generally do not procreate.

[/quote]

Your point simply proves that there is no such thing as a homosexual gene. There is simply **no **biological reason nor necessity for it. It is clear that God simply created woman for the man and man and woman for each other, and nothing more.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#16

[quote=tralon]My parents used to call homosexuals “queers” in their day, now they are called gay. Next we will call them Mr & Mrs so and so.
[/quote]

Such is the way of political correctness.

Gerry :slight_smile:


#17

[quote=ramman50076]I am currently debating a “Catholic” who insists that Homosexuality is a Trait in humans Created by GOD. That it is no longer considered a Mortal Sin in those who were “created” that way , due to the fact that their conscience tells them that their feelings are not wrong in the eyes of GOD due to their being made to feel the ways they feel. In effect , their conscience is clear to accept the feelings they have. That those feelings , being bred into them by the creator - eliminates their culpability as a result.

Anyone care to respond to this?
[/quote]

“created” that way "

You could use the same argument for.

Liars
Cheats
Thieves
Child molesters
Drunks
Procrastinators
Serial killers
Bums

ETC.


#18

On Johnette Benkovic’s Abundant Life program on EWTN she had a psychiatrist on a couple months ago. He explained that homosexuality may be a deeply learned behavior and is hard to change, just as the speech patterns and accents are learned and are equally difficult to change.

Or, perhaps, his point was that same-sex attraction could be something like that. And, I think they based the rest of the interview with that as a given.


#19

There are more homosexuals in the Catholic priesthood, than in America. So they all can’t be bad.

That was completly unfounded and uncharitable. It’s very likely that there is a higher percentage of homosexuals in the priesthood than in the general population, but I found that statement to be inflammatory.

No homosexual is any more ‘bad’ than any other of God’s creatures. All homosexual acts, on the other hand, are wrong.

As other posters have said, even if he was born that way, we’re all broken and wounded and part of that is a desire to sin. We all have our favorite sins.

If a person’s concience tells them that it would be bad not to act on their homosexual feelings, then they should follow their conscience. We all should follow our conscience otherwise we’d be doing things we think are wrong. But we all have a duty to seek a well-formed conscience. By only using our feelings to form our conscience we are deliberately remaining ignorant of God’s law. And if we know God’s law and choose to follow our feelings instead, then we’re deliberatly choosing ourselves over God.

The poster who said this is moral relativism is exactly right. And that’s a hard thing to argue in this current culture since anything else is considered “intollerant” and “tollerance” is the only recognized virtue in this culture.


#20

[quote=RobedWithLight]Such is the way of political correctness.

Gerry :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Back in the 1950’s,my Dad took me to visit his sisters.When it was time to leave,we gave ourselves a quick wash and combed our hair.Dad said to my Aunts,"that’s us all POOFED UP and
we’re going out with a couple of TARTS.At that time,being poofed
up simply meant you were dressed up in your Sunday best and a
Tart was simply a girl or something with raisins in it which you could eat.Nowadays,if you use the word Tart,you are calling a girl
a slut and a poof is a gay man.
A good example of political correctness going in the opposite direction.


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