honestly asking origional sin

Why are catholics so confused about origional sin. The only consequence from origional sin is physical death and spiritual death. Christ automatically fixed the physical death obstical so that just leaves our spiritual death problem left. I don’t get the whole baptizing babies to overcome origional sin. Babies have nothing to overcome.

Can you try to better explain? I don’t think it’s clear what you’re asking.

Thanks,
RAR

Gladly, I’m just trying to understand your concept of origional sin.

Okay, I’ll try… but why do I think I’m walking into a trap? (he suspiciously looks side to side)

Original Sin is not each individual’s first sin, but the first sin of our parents, Adam & Eve. The Original Sin was what Adam & Eve wrought in the Garden of Eden when they ate of the tree of knowledge (desiring to know what God knows and become like God). Their sin was also humanity’s and since sin leaves a stain, we are all born with Original Sin.

Baptism washes us clean and introduces us into the Body of Christ.

RAR

So according to you falis, babies DO have the issue of spiritual death left to them? And this is somehow NOT a problem?

Babies can die spiritually like all other humans, and baptism can prevent that, so why would you NOT do it?

Before responding I have a follow-up question so I know how to best approach the question: do you believe that the bible is inspired by God and entirely truth?

quote: falisrm

Why are catholics so confused about origional sin. The only consequence from origional sin is physical death and spiritual death. Christ automatically fixed the physical death obstical so that just leaves our spiritual death problem left. I don’t get the whole baptizing babies to overcome origional sin. Babies have nothing to overcome.

The actual difficulty is the whole concept of original sin.

The punishment meted out to Adam and Eve was
soley in the natural realm.

I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children
*Cursed be the ground because of you! In toil shall you eat its yield all the days of your life. *
By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat [Genesis 3]

No one who has lived, for any length of time, is unaware of the fact that people sin.

Yet man is born in innocence.

To even consider that God would saddle an innocent human being,
with some kind of ‘ontologic’ sin - a sin in the very being of man

  • ‘inherited’ from Adam - is to misunderstand the *yetzers = *
    an inclination toward good, and an inclination toward evil.

torah.org/learning/ramchal/classes/class12.html

This is easily seen by observation - for we see that, by far and away, the large majority of men and women are good - in their actions, and in their intentions. While the TV news highlights the evil that is done, in the world, no presentation is made of the goodness and the sheer kindness, that was everywhere done, on a given day.

The truly helpful reality, in terms of Christianity, is that Christianity has spread the news about the existence of one God, Who is creator of all.

reen12

Why are catholics so confused about origional sin.

I can’t help you there. The best I can offer is that it is something to difficult to explain and understand. Some simply haven’t made the effort to understand. Some can’t understand it as anything more than God punishing all of us for the mistakes of Adam and Eve. Some have a more reformer notion that original sin is a permanent blight on us. Others disagree on minutiae, and even the error in tiny details can lead to different logical conclusions.

The only consequence from origional sin is physical death and spiritual death.

That’s quite a big ‘only’.

Christ automatically fixed the physical death obstical so that just leaves our spiritual death problem left.

There’s something not quite right about this statement. “In dying, You destroyed our death; in rising You restored our life.” Jesus’ death on the cross made reparations between mankind and God. He willing bore the burden of all of our sins, a task that only a human could do, so that it would have merit, but a task only God could do, so that it would have infinite worth. Jesus made it possible for man to be reconciled to God. Before, man was turned away from God, either willing or unwillingly; after, man had the chance to turn to God. Man now has the chance to be filled with the original graces God gave to him, which is a matter of repairing the spiritual death. In regards to physical death, we all die, and we will all receive new bodies at the resurrection, be we saved or damned. If we are saved, our bodies are glorified; if we are damned, we get take our new bodies to eternal damnation with us.

I don’t get the whole baptizing babies to overcome origional sin. Babies have nothing to overcome.

Then you don’t fully grasp the Catholic understand of original sin. Adam and Eve were suffused with grace. They had a perfect human nature and all the gifts that came with grace. When they sinned against God, they lost all that grace. This loss distorted their very nature. To put it simply (and perhaps a little too simply), they became creatures incapable of receiving grace, and they passed this distortion down through all generations.

When we are born, we are born without grace, without the capacity for grace. Baptism is essentially the mechanism that restores our capacity for grace. It was established as the normative means of doing so (though God allows extraordinary means, when necessary, such as baptism of desire). Taking this into account, why not baptize infants? Why not give them the chance to live in God’s grace from as early a time as possible, especially with the very real possibility that the unbaptized don’t make it to heaven? (We hope they do, that God has a plan to save them outside the normative means, but we cannot know for sure.)

But baptism is necessary to overcome original sin. Original sin is not sin in itself; it is not something that anyone chooses, just as no one chooses to inherit his genetic code. Original sin is the inheritance of that fallen state Adam and Even found themselves in after they sinned against God. But it is a condition that can be reversed, and again, the cure is baptism.

Actually, you are backwards. Jesus removed spiritual death, we will still physically die. And, that death is only removed to those who accept it.

Original sin is as much a state as it is anything else. In some ways, the word “sin” is misleading. Original sin is not an act that anyone commits other than Adam and Eve. It is a state by which we are naturally born into a fallen race in a fallen world.

Original sin holds a side effect called concupiscience. This is a natural drifting from God that all mankind undergoes unless acted upon by grace. If we do nothing, we slowly drift from God. Most people who lead active prayer lives will tell you that when they take a break, they begin to fall faster. It is the way it is.

Now, baptism removes the stain of original sin. IN the eyes of God, we are his adopted children, in the same state as Adam and Eve were at the beginning. However, as the Fall caused a disorder in the world, we are still subject to concupiscience as well as the other punishments from the fall.

All of mankind is born innocent. We are born, however, in a fallen state. WE are not guilty of any personal sin at birth. This is why the early Church thought of Limbo and it is why now we see that we trust in God’s mercy. Jesus said that a man must be bron again of water and the Spirit to enter heaven, so baptism is required according to Jesus.

The easiest interpretation is that OS is human’s tendency to do evil.

Reen, you said,

  • Yet man is born in innocence.*

We’re born in one kind of innocence, yes; we don’t know about all the various sins that are available to us.

But we are not born sinless. Go visit a daycare, and you will see that babies are born selfish and self-centered. We have to be taught to share, and we have to be taught self-control; they do not come naturally.

This is the effect of Original Sin; we call it concupiscence, the tendency towards sin.

We are also born with the guilt - inherited, not merited - for our first ancestors’ defiance of God. It is that guilt which is washed away by Baptism.
Hope that helps,

Ruthie

I think St. Paul teaches us about original sin better than I can explain it;

Romans 5:12
4 Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned 5 – (this is talking about original sin after the fall of Adam)
13
for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.
14
**But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come. **
15
But the gift is not like the transgression.( the gift is the grace God gives in his saving sacraments which infuses us with his Love, Mercy and grace) For if by that one person’s transgression the many died, how much more did the grace of God and the gracious gift of the one person Jesus Christ overflow for the many.
16
And the gift is not like the result of the one person’s sinning. **For after one sin there was the judgment that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal. **
17
**For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ. **
18
**In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. **
19
For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous.
20
**The law entered in 6 so that transgression might increase but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more,
21
7 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through justification for eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

St Paul was a die hard Catholic**

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