Honour of Mary


#1

I justed wanted to talk about the honour of mary in the catholic church. I recently read a book on the honour of Mary which actually opened my eyes to many truths. I wonder why Mary is still called a virgin in the catholic churches when we all know that Mary had many other children after the Holy Spirit conception of Jesus Christ, because it is written that Joseph went in to her after the birth of Jesus.
Also why is it that Mary is said to be sitting on the right hand side of Jesus christ when it is also written in the bible that Jesus sits on the right hand side of God and no mention of Mary.
I strongly believe that Mary was only an earthly vessel used by God to bring forth the Messiah into this sinful world and so no special treatment such as putting statues of her and reciting the rosary to her should be done in churches because Jesus as is written in the Bible is the only mediator to God and even Jesus himself never took Mary as his mother but then everyone one who believed in him was his mother and his brothers.
Finally, i just want to really emphasize the point that Mary honour and atimes worship in the catholic church is just not necessary because it seems to be taking the place of the worship of God through Jesus Christ his son. I would like to get the views of others on this issue please, thank you.


#2

I wonder why Mary is still called a virgin in the catholic churches when we all know that Mary had many other children after the Holy Spirit conception of Jesus Christ, because it is written that Joseph went in to her after the birth of Jesus.

**No, we don’t know this.

If EOS (the Greek word in Matthew 1) means that Joseph had sexual relations with her after the birth of Jesus, then EOS in Matthew 28 means that at the end of the world, Jesus will no longer be with us.

Same word used in the same Gospel in the same construction.

It can’t mean one thing in one verse and the opposite in the other.

I might add that the perpetual virginity of Mary is held by ALL the Eastern Churches, including those not in communion with Rome, and even by the Reformers Zwingli, Luther, and Calvin.

Try again.**


#3

I’m really lazy, so I’m just gonna copy a reply I made earlier! :smiley:


First, I thought it would be pertinent to explain the levels of honor we give to the saints, Mary, and God.

Dulia – Praise, given to the saints (or anyone you like, really)
Hyperdulia – "Hyper-praise,” given to Mary
Latria – Worship, given to God alone

I think the issue most Protestants have with Mary is that they think that it is much more beneficial to go directly to Jesus and Mary is a distraction from that direct connection with Him.

This is, in fact, quite to the contrary! Mary is the most perfect road to Christ. If we are to imitate Jesus as perfectly as possible, then we need to spend every second of our lives devoted to her, just as he so perfectly demonstrated.

When we pray to Mary, we are not getting distracted from Christ, but rather are being focused on Christ.

I think praying directly to God is a wonderful, wonderful thing to do, but just think of how perfect Mary can make your prayers if you pray to her. She, being perfected in all virtues, will most generously perfect and even embellish your prayers and then offer them to God. Who could know God and what most pleases Him more than his Holy Mother? Mary knows exactly how to give the most glory to God, and we don’t. Since we’re certain she won’t reject our requests (if they be in accordance with God’s will), why not ask her to make our prayers perfect?

Since Mary’s greatest wish is that we please God as much as possible, spending time with her will only allow us to more perfectly please her Son, Jesus.

If we imagine Jesus as the sun, then we can imagine Mary as the moon. The sun is so bright and so brilliant that we’ll be blinded if we look at it too long. But the moon only reflects that light, and so it is much more comfortable to look at. In the same way, Mary reflects God’s awesome light, and so I am much more comfortable speaking to her. How unworthy we are to approach God! But when we approach Mary, we know we are approaching only a human being, just as we ourselves are. She can talk to God on our behalf.

Although talking directly to God has absolutely no bad aspects to it, speaking to Him through Mary shows Him your humility in recognizing your unworthiness to speak straight to Him.

Being the spouse of the Holy Spirit, Mary was given all the graces possible (“Hail, full of grace”). God has given her the power to dispense these graces to whomever she wills and in whatever amount she wills.

In the end, the decision is not Mary or Jesus, but rather, Mary, for Jesus.

“If they will permit her to do so, she will mould them into perfect images of her Son. Let a man melt the self-love in him and throw it onto the desert sands; then let him pour the molten gold of his love into the heavenly mould of the Mother of God. The gold will be shaped into perfection.” - Wisdom’s Fool - A biography of St. Louis de Montfort.


because Jesus as is written in the Bible is the only mediator to God

Since Jesus is God, we are still so unworthy of him. But Jesus is our Mediator because he is True God and True Man. And Mary is our Mediatrix. This is because she is Immaculate and “full of grace”. She never sinned. Her spirit is one with Christ’s spirit. This means that her will is God’s will. She only wants us to do what will please God most.

**even Jesus himself never took Mary as his mother **

Au contrare!

Jesus was always perfectly obedient to his mother. Why would he be so obedient to someone who he did not accept as his mother? Do you remember the wedding of Cana? Jesus asked Mary what he would have her do, and Mary told the wedding people to do whatever Jesus asked, obviously implying (knowing that Jesus would obey) that Jesus would do something. Jesus performed his first miracle at his mother Mary’s request!

Perhaps you were referring to the fact that Jesus called Mary “woman.” This was not because he did not take her as his mother, but because he was respecting her profound and perfect humility. Mary did not want to be known as the Mother of the Lord, or she might have been praised! Jesus was respecting her wishes by concealing her identity.
:thumbsup:


#4

Actually, only a small fraction of Christians believe this. the vast majority of Christians, upwards of 80% including many of the mainstream Protestant denominations, know that the term brotheran as used in the Gospels can actually refer to people who are not even blood relatives. In additon to that, those who were actually there at the time have written that Mary did not have other children.


#5

A little lesson in Jewish tradition…
Jews were totally obsessed with cleanliness. A Jewish man of that time would have found it totally out of the question to have relations with a woman who had a child by another… so Mary being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and conceiving Christ would not be open to sexual relations with a man…

And even more importantly… We know that every important thing in the Old Testament has an equivalent in the New Testament, called Arch types… As the Ark of the Covenant carried God, so Mary as a vessel that held Christ within her womb is as the Ark. If you remember in the Old Testament, men died if they touched the Ark even by accident. As a Jew, Joseph would know that to defile Mary in any way would be instant death.


#6

What book would that be, and by what author? Do you believe everything that you read? :shrug:

I wonder why Mary is still called a virgin in the catholic churches when we all know that Mary had many other children after the Holy Spirit conception of Jesus Christ, because it is written that Joseph went in to her after the birth of Jesus.

No…as a matter of fact that is nowhere stated in the New Testament and you cannot provide a passage that actually says that at all.

I wrote this to respond to your kind of question. The Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Also why is it that Mary is said to be sitting on the right hand side of Jesus christ when it is also written in the bible that Jesus sits on the right hand side of God and no mention of Mary.

New one on me! I know of no authoritative Catholic teaching thats says this, and I have studied our teachings on the Blessed Virgin quite a bit.

I strongly believe that Mary was only an earthly vessel used by God to bring forth the Messiah into this sinful world and so no special treatment such as putting statues of her and reciting the rosary to her should be done in churches because Jesus as is written in the Bible is the only mediator to God and even Jesus himself never took Mary as his mother but then everyone one who believed in him was his mother and his brothers.

Really? The second most unique person in human history behind Christ Himself and that all you think? The New Testament has very substantial passages about the Blessed Virgin and the intercession of saints. You should probably “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” (2nd Timothy 2:15)

The rest of this paragraph of yours is a fine display of literalist interpretation of scripture instead of literal interpretation of it as Catholics do.

Finally, i just want to really emphasize the point that Mary honour and atimes worship in the catholic church is just not necessary because it seems to be taking the place of the worship of God through Jesus Christ his son. I would like to get the views of others on this issue please, thank you.

If you say so…However, your thinking is ill informed.

We do not worship Mary.

Immaculate Conception and Assumption
Mary: Ever Virgin (Fathers*)
Mary: Full of Grace (Fathers*)
Mary: Mother of God (Fathers*)
The Rosary
The Intercession of the Saints (Fathers *)
Praying to the Saints
Saint Worship?
Do Catholics Worship Statues?
'Brethren of the Lord’
Reasons Why I Believe in The Blessed Virgin Mary’s Assumption

Since you appear to like to read, I suggest all the above links and then, when you have read them as carefully as you did whatever ill informed book it was that you read, you might want to come back and discuss the facts that are presented in them. :shrug:


#7

I recently read a book on the honour of Mary which actually opened my eyes to many truths

Did you know that the prayer(petition) to Mary…“Hail Mary, Full of Grace”, asking her to pray for us, comes directly from the bible? I challenge you to get a book or tape of Fatima,and after you read or listen to it,…then ask God,…ask God.


#8

No, we don’t 'all know" that Mary had ‘many other children’ after Jesus. No, it is NOT written that Joseph went in to her after Jesus was born. It does not say that at all. Others have addressed the ‘until’ clause which has been erroneously interpreted to mean that after the birth of Christ, Joseph had relations with Mary.

I invite you to read the Protoevangelium of James, which, up until the canon of the bible was settled, was read by many early Christian communities as scripture.
We do know that at the Crucifixion, Jesus gave Mary to the disciple John. If Jesus had had any brothers or sisters, this would not have been necessary. Jesus is referenced as ‘the’ son of Mary several times. In Aramaic, this indicates that Jesus was the only son. If she had had other children, he would have been ‘a’ son of Mary.

In the times of the kings of Israel, the mother of the king became the queen. If you read through Chronicles and Kings, you will find that every time a king is named, his mother is also named. This is because she had become the queen. If you read the account of Solomon and Bathsheba, you will see that Solomon has a throne placed at his right hand for his mother, the queen. Jesus is the King. This makes Mary his Queen and following the Jewish royal tradition, she has been placed on a throne at His right hand.

This is just so offensive. Not in what it says about Mary, but what it is saying about God. 'Only an earthly vessel used by God. God does not ‘use’ people and discard them. Is this what we can expect when we have faithfully done His will to the best of our ability? To be discarded, thrown away, left for garbage? Is this what is promised to us? If He tosses Mary on the rubbish heap, who was so blessed as to actually carry God within her, what can we expect for ourselves? Is this the God of love we are taught about, who loves us so much that he died for us?

If this was God’s plan, then why would He even need a mother? Why couldn’t He have come into the world a fully grown man? He could have, but He didn’t. He chose to born of Mary. When God chooses someone to do something special in His Divine Plan, He does not use them and then throw them away. God personally chose Mary not only to carry Him in her womb, but to be His mother. He wasn’t immediately placed into foster care because God was finished with Mary now that she had done her duty as an incubator. She raised Him, taught Him, was the perfect Mother to Him. She was Chosen by God to be His Mother - out of all women, of all time.

How do you feel about your mother? How do you think Christ feels when you say such things about His mother?

In the passage you cite, he is not bad-mouthing his mother at all. Jesus followed all the Commandments. How can anyone say that He dishonored His Mother? On the contrary, He is reminding people that it is doing the will of God (not just believing in Him, but DOING His Will) that makes someone His family. Mary ALWAYS did the will of God. So, far from bad-mouthing her, he was telling people to imitate her. She did the will of God, that is why she was blessed. We too can be blessed if we do the will of God.

The Rosary is a Jesus-centered prayer. The heart of the Rosary is meditating on the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

If I can ask you to pray for me, to mediate with God for me, then I can ask Mary to pray for me.

We never mistake the honor we give to Mary with the worship we give to God. If someone does worship Mary, they will be excommunicated and declared anathema as was done here:
freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1895873/posts

We call Jesus our brother. If Jesus is our brother, then it follows naturally that Mary is our mother too. We are also called to obey the commandment to honor our father and mother. In honoring Mary, we are following God’s command to honor our mother.

We honour Mary because God honours her. Mary is honored because of her relationship with Jesus and because she always did the will of God. Mary is the first and the most perfect Christian, most perfect follower of Christ there has ever been or ever will be. Giving honour to Mary never leads us away from Christ, but only to Him.


#9

I think you might be having trouble telling your left from your right:

Left Side ----- Jesus ----- Right Side

Now, let’s substitute “Left Side” with “God the Father”:

God the Father ----- Jesus ----- Right Side

In the above diagram, isn’t Jesus on God’s right hand? Doesn’t that make God the Father to Jesus’ left side? The answer to both questions is, “Yes.”

Doesn’t it also leave the position at Jesus’ right hand open for whomever Jesus wants to have it? Again, the answer is, “Yes.”

– Mark L. Chance.


#10

True! From the greek the “until” far from clearly means a cessation. Therefore we cannot assume based on the Greek that they had sexual relations.

As noted, it is also clear that the alleged brothers and sisters of Christ can logically and linguistically be assumed to be relatives.

OP, ask yourself why if Jesus had brothers would Jesus give care of his mother to John from the cross??? That would have gone against Jewish custom and been quite an insult to his brothers (were they his siblings).

Catholics devotion to Mary is complicated. It is based on scripture and tradition. Read Genesis 3:15 or Rev 12:17 and so on. Mary is the new Eve.

If you want to know more from a scriptural and logical point of view read all parts of this excellent essay by Fr. Mateo (available on this site through the search engine). Demonstrates why the Catholic Church is correct as he takes apart the Christian Research Institutes critique of the Catholic position.

catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9208fea.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9209fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9210fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9211fea3.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9212fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9301fea3.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9302fea2.asp


#11

:rolleyes:
Nothing you have said here is in the Bible. I don’t doubt that somebody may have told you it was in the Bible, but, yean, that person was telling you tarradiddles. And way big ones at that!

Also why is it that Mary is said to be sitting on the right hand side of Jesus christ when it is also written in the bible that Jesus sits on the right hand side of God and no mention of Mary.

Ummmmm…I think you may have just a:cool: wee tiny bit of a touch of dyxlexia, laddie.
As well as an overactive imagination.

I strongly believe that Mary was only an earthly vessel used by God to bring forth the Messiah into this sinful world and so no special treatment such as putting statues of her and reciting the rosary to her should be done in churches because Jesus as is written in the Bible is the only mediator to God and even Jesus himself never took Mary as his mother but then everyone one who believed in him was his mother and his brothers.

Laddie, laddie!!
If Jesus Christ treated His own mother the way you say He did, He:eek: broke the “first commandment with promise**”–“Honour thy father and thy mother”.**
If He broke a commandment,:eek: He was not perfect.
If He was not perfect, then :eek: “there remaineth no sacrifice for sins”.
If there is no sacrifice for sins,:eek: :eek: we are all going to hell.

You have gotta think these things through a wee longer, yean…

Finally, i just want to really emphasize the point that Mary honour and atimes worship in the catholic church is just not necessary because it seems to be taking the place of the worship of God through Jesus Christ his son. I would like to get the views of others on this issue please, thank you.

:nope:
I think that ye dinnae know what ye are speaking of, yean, and till ye do know, ye may find it wiser to nae be tossin’ ye’re wee notions about, until sech time as ye do know…


#12

[size=3]If u love the mother, you love the son. The son is the cherished possession of the mother, therefore it naturally follows that you love the son who is in the mother’s heart.

We do not love Mary more than Jesus. We love her with Jesus.

Also, there are more than one version of the bible. The Church has not appproved all of them for reasons. Some of them contain historical innaccuracies.The saint James bible isn’t approved by the Catholic Church. One reason is because it does not have some books in the bible which should be there. Another reason is because this bible is not interpretted properly. The correct bible version is the Doay-Rheims. I think I spelt this wrong, but you know which one i mean. Well, I hope so. :blush:

Some of the things you stated are not in the bible. Also, don’t forget that brother is not the proper translation. It is brethren. Consider people nowadays who call women sisters because they are close, not because they are really sisters. Just like guys. They refer to their friends as brothers, hommies, etc. [/size]


#13

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