How can God demand this?

I just got into an discussion with an atheist who claimed that the only way to have an truly moral society which would be secular included individual euthanasia (since people should have the right to decide how they die and totally would not extend to the mentally disabled) since religion uses God in the OT to justify male circumcisum and slavery of foreign people it’s in Leviticus 25:44 and 12:3 respectively. Please, someone help me. :confused:

You do realize that this is totally nonsensical, right?

Morality has no meaning without God.

Ezekiel 20:24-26 “because they had not observed My ordinances, but had rejected My statutes and had profaned My sabbaths, and their eyes were on the idols of their fathers.
I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live; and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the LORD.”

Jesus said [Matt 5:38-39], "You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ “But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.…”

Jesus gave us a New Covenant to live by, “my yoke is easy and my burden is light,” as opposed to the Jewish Law “by which they could not live”.

By what authority does the atheist even define what is moral?

Of course unless society recognizes and worships God a purely secular culture will develope for whom there is no right or wrong. The few Christians surviving in such a society will be at the mercy of the secular state. This happened in Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, in Communist China, Cuba, etc.

Your secular friend is correct. When men abandon God anything goes. That is why Christianity do its best to see that this does not happen.

It would not be God’s will that this should happen. But he will not force men to acknowledge Him, nor to obey Him. This would make things worse. Of course the good will suffer along with the evil. God cannot change it without destroying man’s free will. And he will not do that.



Or a worse thing can happen, which I think already has happened: men will worship a counterfeit god who is in reality Lucifer, parading the earth under the guise of spreading enlightenment.

What do you mean…“morality has no meaning without God”?

You can’t mean people cannot be moral without God, because there are millions of people who have been and are moral without any God.

So do you mean…people who are moral without God…have no meaning in their morality? And if so, what does* that *mean?


As a pro-life progressive Christian, I don’t believe that the genocides and babie’s butchering attributed to God in the OT stem from God but were culture-conditionned human thoughts about God.

Lovely greetings from Germany.
Liebe Grüsse aus Deutschland.

Lothars Sohn - Lothar’s son

God does not demand anything. If we choose to follow Him we still have our free will to choose between what is wrong, what right. But if we follow Him I can’t see why we would not do as He hope we do. God want us all to be saved. He did send His own Son to suffer for our sins, out of His love for us. God hope we do what is right, He do not demand anything. We love God so why should we not do His will? In the end it is all up to us.

I agree with the other replier’s question: “With what criteria can an atheist define morals?” It was something like that… did he say that people would have a right to do anything else? Why is choosing how they die the determining moral factor? What about the people who want to murder? If people have a right to choose how they want to die then they must be able to choose how they want to live… and if you don’t allow someone to do that then you are oppressing them the same way you are oppressing the people you were trying not to oppress. You cannot allow people to live as killers if they wish and simultaneously allow everyone to choose how they die. SOMEONE has to be oppressed in order to NOT oppress someone else and therefore this person’s idea of morality is not morality at all but an impossible reality.

If the Bible is God’s word, than how can we say that anything about it is influenced by human thinking? It wouldn’t completely be God’s word then… it would be some of God’s word and human’s take on what God might be thinking. Or maybe just human’s guessing.

That is not what his friend is claiming.

The point of faith is defined by what and how much one may believe. We have never seen God, but a long time ago His Son, who is God, in the mystical secret of The Holy Trinity, did walk on this earth and today He is still talking to us in deeds and in love. That we belive, and that is our faith.

We belive in something we have not seen in a shape we want to. But it is not up to us to tell (demand?) God in what figure we want to see Him, but we can see Him. No matter in what direction we look we see God. He is in every living thing, and He is in all that is “dead” in our mind, rocks, mountains, you name it. We see Him and we feel His presence if we want. And thru our faith, we can see Him. It is not “human guessing”, it is faith. Yes, God did not write The Bible but every word in it, is God’s word. The Bible is a “collection” of human testimony about things that have happen. No matter how you twist and turn, you face a wall when you try to deny the Truth from The Gospels or what did happen during the time OT was written.

We know that water is wet, but we don’t know why. We know that The Bible is the Book of Truth, but we don’t know why. One with faith is blessed, he do not think deeper then needed, one without faith try to reason something that is beyond all we can comprehend, and hit the wall.

For me God is life, true and loving. I like it that way. Why does people all the time try to find a “reasonable doubt” factor so that he/she can choose what fit the world he/she can live in? A simple faith is better then a “complicated” faith. There are some things we don’t need to understand. Blessed is the one who don’t understand and love what he/she can’t grasp. Am I blessed? I hope I am.

Without faith there is nothing. Without faith we are nothing. Without faith there will be nothing. What do you like more? Nothing or something so magnificent we can’t understand it? The Bible is God’s word, and that is the truth. Alas, somebody always try to tempt people to worship wisdom more then God. If we have faith, we have what God want us to have, because God love us so much and He want to save us all, and all that is needed is love because love make us do God’s will.

Agreed. That makes no sense.

Morality has no meaning without God.

Of course, that makes no sense either.

I’d be interested in hearing 1ke’s explanation too. But I’d be surprised if we get one from her.

I guess you have to clarify what you mean by people can be moral without God. Can a Godless person preform acts of morality? Sure, can they be moral appearing? Ok. Can they live a completely moral life devoid of any immorality? Nope. And there is no way to prove one could anyway. We do not know the deep dark secrets of every single person we know. But to have a set of morals or principles without acknowledging the Author of all Morality is only just to live by a set of principles you thought of and you are only accountable to you. And sometimes the best liar I have ever heard is myself telling myself I am right.

I’m not arguing against faith, but if the Bible is truly God’s word then it must not contain any human words, or human interpretations. In other words it has to be purely what God wants said and taught and nothing more. But as far as I know, rather than condoning slavery, the Bible teaches the proper way to treat slaves if you do have them. Which means in God’s eyes having slaves must not be a sin.

I could be completely wrong, please feel free anyone to point out if I am, I do not mind at all.

Mindful of the need to avoid semantics…what does this statement imply for the meaning of (the subject of) “Ethics”, which I’ve always thought of as a secular subject?

The poster was quite right. People can not live a moral life without God. The statement is flawed because how would one differentiate what is moral and what is not moral without some kind of pre existing idea of Morals. There can be no Bad without Good to compare it to otherwise it would just be called different. Every atheist will tell you evil exists.

We all assume some kind of pre existing moral law. Which means there is a moral law giver this being God. The source of all Good.

There are 7 root words in the Hebrew which mean God. The most popular one used in scripture is Jehova. This same word is used to describe the devil in places like ‘the god of the minianites or the god of the jebusites.’ The difference in the English translations is a Capital G for God or a small g for the devil.

And God rained down fire and brimstone on soddom and gammora? I don’t think so, This should be a small case g. God is the source of all good and perfect things and he never changes. God hardened pharohs heart against Israel? nope should have been a small case g as well. God hardened the nations hearts to wage war against Israel so they could wipe em out of the promised land? nope small case g.

Why do we believe the 10 or so mistakes in the bible over the thousands of times it says He’s a good God. You wouldn’t accept that in life if 10 kids from school told you your daughter was a bad kid and 100 told you she was a good kid. God is Good and He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Without God there is no Lawgiver and therefore no moral standard to tell us what is really right or wrong. In a purely secular world there is no " morality, " all actions no matter how heinous are equally valid. So called " morality " is such a world is determined by whoever possesses the most and more powerful guns. And it really is that simple. Secularists may spin all the nicest throries about morality they wish, but without God, it is the gun than wins.


So what is the source of Ethics, which is taught in various schools, and is secular? Note, I do agree that some areas of Christian morality would not arise in the scope of an Ethics class. For example, Ethics would not have a position on homosexual relations; our Christian morality on this subject comes from God. Is it the case that all Ethics as taught is derived from religious law?

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