How can I get this straight?!?


#1

I told some people that I was joining the CC (someday hopefully!) and hoped they wouldn’t get mad and such and told them that I felt the the CC is THE Church, etc, etc. and they responded back something like “well, you know, the church is the family of God, there is only ONE true church which is the Body of Christ, etc. There is no one denomination, or no one denomination is THE church, etc.”

I’m starting to go back to my confusion and even frustration about this agian!:frowning: You know, when people say these kinds of things, it’s strong and even to-the-point where it makes you stop and think, well, they are right or what’s the TRUTH!!! Like I’ve said before, it’s like I’m walking down a road and I come across 10 or more paths (different religions) and there’s only ONE (100% FULL TRUTH!) that leads to eternity - or I should say, FULL TRUTH (Heaven…I’m not saying other religions wont get into Heaven…just illustrating my point) and I have to determine which is the real, true, reality-of-it-all way to take. It’s like there seems to be 3 or 5 paths leading to a beautiful country side in the distance (religions that SEEM to be the TRUTH but not full) and the rest of them lead to a dark forest (fake ones!). See what I mean? It makes you tempted to think, well, I try this one 'cause it seems right, etc.!!! AHH!:bigyikes: Can you guys see where I’m coming from?

All I can say is I’m only TRUSTING the CC to be THE REALITY, of how we should really be living our faith and what Christ really intends!!!:ehh:

What do you guys think about this?


#2

I definitely went through a phase before I was Catholic where I thought, “I know I’m Christian, but what kind of Christian? And does it really matter?” I was pretty sure I wasn’t Catholic, mostly because I had a lot of misconceptions about the Church from others.

Once I started going to Mass and really give the Catholic faith a chance, the teachings, one by one, clicked into place. I understood what the Church was teaching and why. I understood that it all stemmed from the Bible. I found that it was the Truth and that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church, started by Jesus Christ.

It seems that you have already started to realize this too, but you feel have not received the support you sought from those around you. Expect Catholics to be excited at your understanding, but I think it is hard to expect non-Catholics to be excited. They don’t yet understand, and when you tell them that you believe Jesus Christ started His Church when he appointed Peter, it challenges them (whether you meant for it or not) to reevaluate what they believe to be Christs Church.

Their defense is likely to be that all Christians are part of the Body of Christ and not recognize the divisions that so obviously exist.

I’ll say a prayer for you. God bless you on your spiritual journey. And welcome to the Catholic Church!


#3

Well, the Catholic Church has something most other Church’s don’t: Scripture and Oral Apostolic Tradition. We inherited not only Scripture but all of the things that the Apostles taught that were not necessarily contained in Scipture (Add up all the days of Jesus’ life in Scripture and you barely scratch the amount of time scholars estimate He spent in His adult ministry) but which Jesus still taught. We have unbroken apostolic succession from the past to the present. Our Sacraments and our teaching all have origins from the earliest Church times. But by the time of Paul’s letters he was already having to defend the Church against those who were twisting these teachings and leading its members astray. People who believed in Christ but who weren’t loyal to the Catholic Church are not anything new.

This does not mean that non-Catholics are condemned to death because they don’t believe everything the Catholic Church does. I do not have the knowledge to elaborate on that part of Church teaching, but will only say that while many religions or Christian denominations may contain grains of or degrees of spiritual truth, the Catholic Church has the inheritance (Scripture and Tradition) and teaching authority (given to us by Christ) to proclaim the Truth MOST FULLY.

–Joruus


#4

[quote=Paris Blues]I told some people that I was joining the CC (someday hopefully!) and hoped they wouldn’t get mad and such and told them that I felt the the CC is THE Church, etc, etc. and they responded back something like “well, you know, the church is the family of God, there is only ONE true church which is the Body of Christ, etc. There is no one denomination, or no one denomination is THE church, etc.”

I’m starting to go back to my confusion and even frustration about this agian!:frowning: You know, when people say these kinds of things, it’s strong and even to-the-point where it makes you stop and think, well, they are right or what’s the TRUTH!!! Like I’ve said before, it’s like I’m walking down a road and I come across 10 or more paths (different religions) and there’s only ONE (100% FULL TRUTH!) that leads to eternity - or I should say, FULL TRUTH (Heaven…I’m not saying other religions wont get into Heaven…just illustrating my point) and I have to determine which is the real, true, reality-of-it-all way to take. It’s like there seems to be 3 or 5 paths leading to a beautiful country side in the distance (religions that SEEM to be the TRUTH but not full) and the rest of them lead to a dark forest (fake ones!). See what I mean? It makes you tempted to think, well, I try this one 'cause it seems right, etc.!!! AHH!:bigyikes: Can you guys see where I’m coming from?

All I can say is I’m only TRUSTING the CC to be THE REALITY, of how we should really be living our faith and what Christ really intends!!!:ehh:

What do you guys think about this?
[/quote]

What they’re saying to you is called Syncretism. It was originally a pagan belief – that all religions are pretty much the same.

Christians would not accept that. They would not allow statues of Jesus to be put in pagan temples, and they would not worship pagan gods. It is the Christian refusal to accept syncretism that led to the persecution.

You have encountered modern syncretists – “There is no one denomination, or no one denomination is THE church.”

Now if you’re attracted to Catholicism, do you REALLY want to adopt the belief that so many Catholics died fighting against?


#5

Read the Catechism regarding no salvation except through the Church. It explains this religious ambivalence as a symptom of lacking the fullness of Truth.

Check out 816 and forward…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#816


#6

Paris,
Don’t let them overwhelm you and believe me they will try! Look on the CA homepage and go to the catalogue. There are some wonderful books on the History of the Catholic Church. Some can be very intimidating but there are many others that can give a pretty concise and easy to understand view of how our Church came to be. They will give you scripture, tradition, the writings and beliefs of the early church. That will help you keep it all straight.

They are right - in a sense - that the church is the body of all the believers in Christ. They believe it is an invisible church. They deny the historical facts like they don’t exist. Christ established a visible church with a visible head to guide and lead His followers. Why would Christ leave us orphans with no one to guide us after He left us this wealth of revelation? It doesn’t make sense!

Study eveything you can get your hands on. Not just so you can give others answers to the crazy things they will ask you but more for YOUR own understanding. YOU need to understand the Church and the beliefs handed down by Jesus and His Apostles. She has kept those teachings pure for the last 2000 years.


#7

THey also questioned, well, one of them did, about why pray to a woman (Mary) who’s “long gone dead” (their quotes) and pray to dead saints with “no powers here”?

The best response I would say is that in a way, Mary also saved us too by being humble enough to accept what the angel of the Lord said (giving birth to a Saviour!). I mean, she could’ve said no, forget it! Then what? That’s something to think about.

Yes, Mary is our spiritual mother 'cause she gave birth to her Son, Christ who said to the apostle before HIs death, “Son behold your Mother” or something like that and vice verca (“Woman, behold your son” Right?). And we have God the Father as the Father! Makes sense! It’s a family! :stuck_out_tongue: Makes sense!:stuck_out_tongue: When we pray to her, she can help and guide us to come closer to her Son! She can also help us with obeying Him too (remember the Wedding at Cana when Jesus was turning the water into wine…Mary said to the servants, “do whatever He tells you!” John 2:1-11 I think!

The saints can guide us too and we can learn so much from them to help us follow our Lord better! It’s soooo cool!:thumbsup:

Is that a good response?


#8

[quote=Paris Blues] THey also questioned, well, one of them did, about why pray to a woman (Mary) who’s “long gone dead” (their quotes) and pray to dead saints with “no powers here”?

The best response I would say is that in a way, Mary also saved us too by being humble enough to accept what the angel of the Lord said (giving birth to a Saviour!). I mean, she could’ve said no, forget it! Then what? That’s something to think about.

Yes, Mary is our spiritual mother 'cause she gave birth to her Son, Christ who said to the apostle before HIs death, “Son behold your Mother” or something like that and vice verca (“Woman, behold your son” Right?). And we have God the Father as the Father! Makes sense! It’s a family! :stuck_out_tongue: Makes sense!:stuck_out_tongue: When we pray to her, she can help and guide us to come closer to her Son! She can also help us with obeying Him too (remember the Wedding at Cana when Jesus was turning the water into wine…Mary said to the servants, “do whatever He tells you!” John 2:1-11 I think!

The saints can guide us too and we can learn so much from them to help us follow our Lord better! It’s soooo cool!:thumbsup:

Is that a good response?
[/quote]

Your response is very good.

But I would add this – go to any Protestant church in the land, and you will almost certainly hear the minister ask the congregation to pray for someone who is sick on in need.

Wait a minute! The minister is PRAYING to the congretation!! (that’s what prayer means, to ask.)

And he’s accepting that THEY can help SOMEONE ELSE with their prayers!!

Now, how is that different from me asking my mother to pray for me? And if my mother is dead, so what? From very early times we have accepted that ALL Christians, alive and “asleep” are part of one Communion of Saints.


#9

The Church is the body of believers, both on earth and in heaven. On earth the Church subsists in the Catholic Church. That is, that portion of the Church which exists on earth is the Catholic Church. Every Christian is a member of the Catholic Church, though many are separated from, and a good number are in open defiance of, the Church. So, by virtue of your baptism you are a member of the Catholic Church. The question for you is, do you continue to be a separated member (a partial member, you might say), or do you become a reunited member, fully partaking in the fullness of His Church.


#10

It takes faith to be a Catholic! :slight_smile: **Catechism of the Catholic Church

1229** From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion, profession of faith, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion.

**1253 ** Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”


#11

[quote=Paris Blues] THey also questioned, well, one of them did, about why pray to a woman (Mary) who’s “long gone dead” (their quotes) and pray to dead saints with “no powers here”?

The best response I would say is that in a way, Mary also saved us too by being humble enough to accept what the angel of the Lord said (giving birth to a Saviour!). I mean, she could’ve said no, forget it! Then what? That’s something to think about.

Yes, Mary is our spiritual mother 'cause she gave birth to her Son, Christ who said to the apostle before HIs death, “Son behold your Mother” or something like that and vice verca (“Woman, behold your son” Right?). And we have God the Father as the Father! Makes sense! It’s a family! :stuck_out_tongue: Makes sense!:stuck_out_tongue: When we pray to her, she can help and guide us to come closer to her Son! She can also help us with obeying Him too (remember the Wedding at Cana when Jesus was turning the water into wine…Mary said to the servants, “do whatever He tells you!” John 2:1-11 I think!

The saints can guide us too and we can learn so much from them to help us follow our Lord better! It’s soooo cool!:thumbsup:

Is that a good response?
[/quote]

It’s decent response, you’re on the right track.

Mary has tremendous power here. Firstoff Mary is not dead, as the Bible says God is the God of Jacob, Issac and Moses. He is the God of the living not of the dead.

Second Mary is Queen of the Heavenly Host and Queen of the Universe. She is the Queen mum, she has an awful lot of clout with Jesus.

Third she is the dispenser from which all graces flow. God has placed her second only to Jesus in the grand scheme of things.

And as you say Mary is our mother in Heaven, she wants to help her children do well and will assist us in any way, including asking the Almighty to help us. As in most families, when dad says no, you go ask your mom to help change his mind :slight_smile:

As far as the saints goes, they are friends of the Almighty, and as friends they have a bit more influence than we, who are all chronic sinners, do.

wc


#12

In short, do your homework. Get on line and find out what the Church teaches regarding Mary. You’ll notice that the arguments raised by Protestants are ‘straw men’. That is, they are killing an argument that the Catholic Church never made. They get the teaching of Catholicism on Mary wrong and so they end up arguing a non-existent and fabricated issue.

You’re on one of the best apologetics websites in the world–use it.


#13

Paris,

Yesterday at 5PM I went to church, lit a big candle at the little chapel to the Virgin Mary, and I said prayers.

I DID NOT pray to Mary. Catholics DO NOT pray to Mary. We Ask her to ask Jesus for our partitions. Your Protestant friend WAS WRONG, we dont worship nor pray to Mary.


#14

Paris,

You have all the world religions before your eyes They contradict one another obviously. Only one can be “the truth” or “the way”.

Or maybe none of them is. It seems like you are not considering that other road – that religion is simply nonsense. This could be the reason why it is so confusing and contradictory.

At least consider it.

clarkal


#15

Paris,
Another thing to add to the good explanation you had about Mary, was as someone else said, Mary is not dead.
I usually say, “Well when you die you may be dead, but I will be alive in Christ. Mary is no different.”

As to your original question, it helped me to actually look back at the history of the Church. For over a thousand years, there was only one church. If you were Christian, that meant Catholic. If you were part of the Body of Christ, you HAD TO BE CATHOLIC! There *used *to be one denomination. But through man’s sin, we once again, messed up God’s beautiful vision. First the Garden and now the Church.

Today there is a touchy feely way to look at the Body of Christ. But it does not change the fact that at one time in history, there used to be one denomination, Christ told us we needed to be one Church, and that Church is the Catholic Church.

Doubts are natural and normal. I came to the Catholic Church as a technical revert, but consider myself a convert. What really helps me was to focus on one issue. Coming from a Bible alone Church, my issue was this, “Either I believe the Bible is God’s inspired word 100%, or I don’t.” The bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. There was only one Church for over 1000 years. So is the Bible wrong, and the one Church lost the truth? If so, that would make Scripture a lie.

For others it is the authority of the Church. If God meant for there to be one Church, where is that Church?

Once I got it straight in my mind how God intended things to be, ONE Church, the rest falls in to place. Today we do have separated brethren. That does not mean that when the Holy Spirit reveals to you that the Catholic Church is the “First Church of Christ” you can ignore that. **It just means that the Holy Spirit has opened you heart to a truth that through no fault of their own, our other Protestant brothers and sister in Christ have not seen yet. **

The greatest lie Satan has been able to put over was the “reformation”. Do not let the truth that the Holy Spirit has revealed to you be clouded again.

God Bless,
Maria


#16

hi
well you sayin whats the truth 100 percent?

which religion what christ?

etc etc

the only answer is this

what is wrtten at the bottom of your post?


#17

[quote=Exporter]Paris,

Yesterday at 5PM I went to church, lit a big candle at the little chapel to the Virgin Mary, and I said prayers.

I DID NOT pray to Mary. Catholics DO NOT pray to Mary. We Ask her to ask Jesus for our partitions. Your Protestant friend WAS WRONG, we dont worship nor pray to Mary.
[/quote]

Wait a second! I was told that Catholics DO pray to Mary not worship! The Rosary,…"Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners…"
you don’t call that praying?? :confused:

I swear, I’m getting BOMBARDED by we don’t pray to saints, Mary, etc. or this and that!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!:banghead: Yet, “oh, we pray to Mary…” It’s like MAKE UP YOUR MINDS PEOPLES!!!


#18

People assume prayer=worship.

HOWEVER

Prayer can = intercession as well.

In the matter of prayer to saints, it is the latter. We are asking them to bring our pention before Jesus.

Some people have even started avoiding saying we “pray to” whomever, but I don’t have any problem with that type of language, I don’t feel we should change what we do in our church, or how we speak, to suit everyone else. Perhaps it will help to open their mind about God’s church.

I know you know this Paris, perhaps it will help you to sit and make yourself write it out so that you do not get confused so easily? Things like that always help me.


#19

[font=Comic Sans MS]well, you know, the church is the family of God, there is only ONE true church which is the Body of Christ, etc. There is no one denomination, or no one denomination is THE church, etc."

[/font]

See, this was the case for the first 1500 years or so. The Catholic (ie Universal) Church was really the original non-denom. It was the Christian Church made up of all Chrisitians. Then Luther and pals came along and created a bunch of denominations. So technically, the Catholic Church is not a denomination but the “ONE true church which is the Body of Christ.” :slight_smile:


#20

[quote=Paris Blues]Wait a second! I was told that Catholics DO pray to Mary not worship! The Rosary,…"Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners…"
you don’t call that praying?? :confused:

I swear, I’m getting BOMBARDED by we don’t pray to saints, Mary, etc. or this and that!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!:banghead: Yet, “oh, we pray to Mary…” It’s like MAKE UP YOUR MINDS PEOPLES!!!
[/quote]

Catholics – AND Protestants – pray to each other. “Pray” means ask. In any Protestant church you can hear the minister ask (pray) the congregation to pray for some person who is sick or in trouble.

So no one (virtually no one – there might always some strange sect that disagrees) objects to asking (praying) other people for prayers, assistance, or help.

The Catholic Church (and most other Christian sects, if you press them) believes in the Communion of Saints – all Christians, dead and alive, form a single Church, and all are in communion.

So: You can ask someone else to pray for you. The person you ask need not be living here on earth, but can be someone who has passed away.

Now, we do not WORSHIP Mary or any other saint. We do, however, pay them special respect – just as a private in the Army would pay respect to an officer (surely you wouldn’t say privates worship officers???)

If you look at the most common prayer to Mary, you see it is composed of three parts:

The Annunciation; “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.” This is what the angel said when he told her she was to bear the Messiah

The Visitation; “Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus” This is what her cousin, Elizabeth said to her when she came to visit while both were pregnant, Mary with Jesus, and Elizabeth with John the Baptist.

The Petition: “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.” We petition her to pray for us – perfectly proper, and something most Protestants would agree with, if they thought about it objectively.


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