How can I reconcile Nostrae Aetate with my faith and common sense?


#1

How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn't my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah's "prophet". Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah--the father/son relationship and divinity--Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:

Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me (John 14:5-6)

(Emphasis mine)


#2

How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn't my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah's "prophet". Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah--the father/son relationship and divinity--Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:

Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me (John 14:5-6)

(Emphasis mine)


#3

[quote="montfortian, post:2, topic:312854"]
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

[/quote]

By recognizing and accepting the teaching authority of the Church.


#4

[quote="montfortian, post:2, topic:312854"]
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn't my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah's "prophet". Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah--the father/son relationship and divinity--Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:
(Emphasis mine)

[/quote]

Would you accept a rather simplistic answer?

The Moslems hold that the their God is the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham is also the God of the Jews. Since Christianity is the fulfillment (not replacement) of the Old Covenant, we also hold to that same belief. However, God also revealed to us His only Begotten Son, and together with the Holy Spirit, They are One.

The Moslems don't have this revelation. Therefore the God they believe is the One True God, but their understanding of His nature is insufficient. It's their understanding that's incomplete, not their God.


#5

[quote="agnes_therese, post:3, topic:312854"]
By recognizing and accepting the teaching authority of the Church.

[/quote]

This seems rather unhelpful. The OP is trying to reconcile it, is making an effort. It isn't wrong to ask why something is the way it is.

Let's not be like the National Catholic Reporter--which we're not--but let's not be reactionary either.


#6

[quote="montfortian, post:1, topic:312854"]
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn't my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah's "prophet". Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah--the father/son relationship and divinity--Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:
(Emphasis mine)

[/quote]

I sympathize with you. I have seen this debate waged here many times. It usually gets too contentious and then it is shut down quickly. To put it simply, most will tell you that just because the Muslims are in great error....does mean that they worship a different god. But I am with you.

I cannot get past this:

Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.


#7

[quote="Mickey, post:6, topic:312854"]
I sympathize with you. I have seen this debate waged here many times. It usually gets too contentious and then it is shut down quickly. To put it simply, most will tell you that just because the Muslims are in great error....does mean that they worship a different god. But I am with you.

I cannot get past this:

Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

[/quote]

But by that logic the Jews do not worship the same God as us either - and no-one has ever said they do not. In fact the contrary.


#8

[quote="montfortian, post:1, topic:312854"]
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

(Emphasis mine)

How is this possible? For example, if I have a friend with a son named Robert, who is thirty-two years old, this characteristic becomes a part of my friends identity. Therefore, if I met a man who looks identical, but has six kids under the age of ten, then I would know he isn't my friend because my friend has only one thirty-two year old kid.

The same applies to the Moslem religion. My God has a Son who is also God: Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But Jesus is only a Allah's "prophet". Therefore, because this prophet lacks two things in relationship to Allah--the father/son relationship and divinity--Allah lacks essential characteristics belonging to my God and is not God.

Then we also have the words of Our Lord:
(Emphasis mine)

[/quote]

There is only one God. They worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob but they neither know who he is nor understand his nature because they have been lead astray by their "prophet". We might say the same thing about the Jews. Do they not worship the true God? Yet they do not recognize Christ, or the Trinity? It is not the Muslim's God who is false, it is their beliefs about him.


#9

[quote="montfortian, post:2, topic:312854"]
How can I accept the statement in Nostrae Aetate that Catholics and Moslems adore the same God as compatible with my faith and common sense?

[/quote]

It does not say they adore the same God. It says they adore the one God.

Is there more than one God?


#10

[quote="SteveVH, post:8, topic:312854"]
There is only one God. They worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob but they neither know who he is nor understand his nature because they have been lead astray by their "prophet". We might say the same thing about the Jews. Do they not worship the true God? Yet they do not recognize Christ, or the Trinity? It is not the Muslim's God who is false, it is their beliefs about him.

[/quote]

I'd have to say neither do, Steve. I hate to be politically incorrect about it, but God defines Himself and who is and is not worshiping Him. When the Israelites crafted the golden calf they too claimed to be worshiping the God of Abraham. That didn't work out too well. The fact remains that God has revealed Himself as Trinity. To not worship that is to worship a different god, because the Trinity was the God Abraham worshiped.


#11

They worship the God of Abraham and follow certain portions of the Mosaic Law, so they follow the same God that we do. It's just that they do not worship Him fully, because they reject the idea of the trinity.


#12

[quote="Gaelic_Bard, post:10, topic:312854"]
I'd have to say neither do, Steve. I hate to be politically incorrect about it, but God defines Himself and who is and is not worshiping Him. When the Israelites crafted the golden calf they too claimed to be worshiping the God of Abraham. That didn't work out too well. The fact remains that God has revealed Himself as Trinity. To not worship that is to worship a different god, because the Trinity was the God Abraham worshiped.

[/quote]

So Paul was lying when he told the Athenians that he came to preach the Unknown God that they worshipped among their other deities? Or committing idolatry? Neither - he was telling truth.

Not that all are blameless in their worship - but then Nostra Aetate does not claim that they are.


#13

God is one: our beliefs are fractured.

We have the fullness of revelation in Christ.

Others do not have the fullness of revelation.

Finally, all are saved through Christ, even if they do not know Him.


#14

[quote="LilyM, post:7, topic:312854"]
But by that logic the Jews do not worship the same God as us either

[/quote]

That is always the first comment in an attempt to prove the muslim statement to be true. Do the Jews (of today) recognize Jesus Christ as the Son of God?

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.


#15

[quote="Mickey, post:14, topic:312854"]
That is always the first comment in an attempt to prove the muslim statement to be true. Do the Jews (of today) recognize Jesus Christ as the Son of God?

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

[/quote]

They recognize the one God. I Am Who AM.

They do not recognize the Triune nature of God.


#16

[quote="Gaelic_Bard, post:10, topic:312854"]
I'd have to say neither do, Steve. I hate to be politically incorrect about it, but God defines Himself and who is and is not worshiping Him. When the Israelites crafted the golden calf they too claimed to be worshiping the God of Abraham. That didn't work out too well. The fact remains that God has revealed Himself as Trinity. To not worship that is to worship a different god, because the Trinity was the God Abraham worshiped.

[/quote]

I agree with you.


#17

[quote="Gaelic_Bard, post:10, topic:312854"]
When the Israelites crafted the golden calf they too claimed to be worshiping the God of Abraham.

[/quote]

No. The calf was an Egyptian God. In their impatience they returned to the false gods of Egypt and turned their back on the God of Abraham.

[quote="Gaelic_Bard, post:10, topic:312854"]
The fact remains that God has revealed Himself as Trinity. To not worship that is to worship a different god, because the Trinity was the God Abraham worshiped.

[/quote]

Well, if that's the way you want to look at it. I don't think Abraham knew about the Trinity at all (if he did he certainly didn't teach it) because it was not revealed until Christ came, nevetheless he worshiped the true God. I think one can recognize that there can only be one, true God and choose to worship him without fully understanding him.


#18

[quote="triumphguy, post:15, topic:312854"]
The recognize the one God.

[/quote]

No they don't.

[quote="triumphguy, post:15, topic:312854"]
They do not recognize the Triune nature of God.

[/quote]

Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.


#19

And so disagree with Church Teaching.


#20

[quote="LilyM, post:12, topic:312854"]
So Paul was lying when he told the Athenians that he came to preach the Unknown God that they worshipped among their other deities? Or committing idolatry? Neither - he was telling truth.

Not that all are blameless in their worship - but then Nostra Aetate does not claim that they are.

[/quote]

It's more complex than that, Lily. There's a reason the Greeks had an unknown god concept - Greek philosophy, especially through Aristotle, understood the concept of a prime mover or singular force. They knew in their hearts that there had to bevone, all powerful being. Paul does not state that they adore the one God. He said that, in essence, your prime mover understanding is right and here is Who He is.

That is radically different than knowing the God of Abraham as He has revealed Himself in Christ..and then rejecting Him.


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