How can someone spot apostasy in the CC?


#1

I was reading this online earlier, this was from a man who decided to leave the catholic church, I found what he said below to be very interesting (in bold), by these verses, its pretty clear God knew the CC was going to be teaching some ‘errors’ during this time up until the second coming, but my question is, if this is so, how do we know what is error and what is correct?

Also, if this began in Pauls time, and will go on until the second coming, can anyone list at least one or two of the errors we do know of, or some of the false teachers so far? Surely in those 2000 yrs, if it started in Pauls day, there should be alot of them by now.

There are many passages in the New Testament which reveal that the church would not be preserved from error. Acts 20:17, 28-30; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; 2 Thess. 2:3-11. We see from these passages that there was to come a great falling away from the truth. In Acts chapter twenty we learn that perverse things would come from the bishops of the church. Peter said (2 Pet. 2) that false teachers would arise among you (working from within) and there would be many who would follow them. Paul tell us (2 Thess. 2) that the apostasy was already underway, “for the mystery of iniquity is already at work…” (Verse 7). It started in Paul’s day and was to continue until the second coming of Christ. He added, “…Whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of his mouth and will destroy with the brightness of his coming.” (Verse 8).


#2

I guess it takes faith to believe that the present Catholic Church is the same as the one of the Apostles. THAT Church may have gone into hidding during the Roman persecution and still be alive today in a smal sect. It takes faith and prayer though in order to make the decision about which person in a robe to follow. We all have doubts, some more than others


#3

With respect, we see nothing of the kind from the cherry picked verses.

The fact that some bishops, even many bishops, might teach error, is indeed documented (Arian heresy, 4th century, anyone?). . .but that the CATHOLIC CHURCH might teach error is not true. “Some bishops”, even “Many bishops” does not equal, “teaching of the Catholic Church”.

So how do we know what is true? Stick with the magisterium, and with the Church (the catechism is a good guide). And don’t worry. Your priest might get things wrong (deliberately or not), your bishop ditto. . .but the Pope, on matters of faith and morals, with the charism of infallibility (which is NOT limited to ex cathedra statements, but includes said Magesterium AKA Deposit of the Faith, and the bishops in concert WITH the Pope, will not err.)


#4

If you read Acts, Paul, James, Revelation, etc., you’ll see exactly what they’re talking about. If you read early Christian literature, you’ll see more.

They’re talking about Gnostic types teaching that it’s okay to worship pagan gods or that we need to learn the right spells to be saved. They’re talking about folks like Simon Magus or the “Jezebel” of Revelation. They’re also talking about “Judaizing” people who thought every Christian had to follow every Jewish law and holiday, and every Gentile had to get circumcised in order to be saved.

Of course, quitting the Catholic Church is also apostasy, so the guy you’re reading is a guy going after splinters when he’s got the whole plank in his eye.


#5

:thumbsup::thumbsup:


#6

As far as I am concerned (both from Catholicism and Orthodoxy), individuals are fallible, the Church is infallible (after all, Christ promised the Holy Spirit will lead us in the fullness of truth).


#7

Great answer.


#8

Those verses are taken out of context, but even so, heresy has existed from the apostles’ time.
In my own lifetime I’ve seen many individuals (bishops, priests, nuns) teaching their own beliefs, contrary to the Faith. Some gather quite a following for which they will have to answer. But as has been said above, the CC will never teach error. Follow the Magisterium and you can be sure you aren’t in apostasy.


#9

There is not one single error taught by the CC for these 2000 years. If there is, many will have used that bullet to bring Her down. Name one.

The CC has a divine guarantee from Christ himself Mat 16:18 and the Holy Spirit to teach all truths John 16:13. Christ is Head of His Church and the HS have not taken a vacation all these years. If the Church has taught error, then one has to conclude that Christ lied about his warranty and didn’t lead his Church and that the HS didn’t do his job and the CC shouldn’t have existed so long. But she lives.

Leaving the CC on poor excuses based on fallibility of individuals in the Church is really groundless. Leaving the CC based on own inability to live up to the requirements of the faith is a more reasonable explanation?


#10


#11

So, all those verses that warn, at some point, the CC will have false teachers within, are just wrong, or…?


#12

The warnings are valid. The teachers are not the Church. They are individuals spewing private opinions and teachings. One must need to discern what individuals teach vs what the Church proper teaches infallibly. History is littered with such people. Some became heretics, some despite their personal differences accepted the Church authority as final overriding their personal preferences.


#13

It’s very easy, I hear apostasy from Authentic Church Teaching all the time. Most recently from a declaration of certain German Bishops that they will not conform with Church teaching on reception of communion by the divorced and remarried.


#14

That is not correct. Apostasy means someone who is baptised rejecting Christianity. A Catholic who leaves the Church to follow other Christian communities has not committed apostasy.

CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”


#15

=mikekle;12963025]I was reading this online earlier, this was from a man who decided to leave the catholic church, I found what he said below to be very interesting (in bold), by these verses, its pretty clear God knew the CC was going to be teaching some ‘errors’ during this time up until the second coming, but my question is, if this is so, how do we know what is error and what is correct?

**There are many passages in the New Testament which reveal that the church would not be preserved from error. Acts 20:17, 28-30; 2 Pet. 2:1-3; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 4:3-4; 2 Thess. 2:3-11. We see from these passages that there was to come a great falling away from the truth. In Acts chapter twenty we learn that perverse things would come from the bishops of the church. Peter said (2 Pet. 2) that false teachers would arise among you (working from within) and there would be many who would follow them. Paul tell us (2 Thess. 2) that the apostasy was already underway, “for the mystery of iniquity is already at work…” (Verse 7) **

Sure; but lets first clarify an essential truth:

As stated by you, you’re in serious error. While the people that make up Christ One true Church and Faith can sin and error; the Church Herself cannot. Your premise is wrong. The “Church” has not and cannot teach in error on Faith and Moral matters.

We have the example of Judas who betrayed Christ and in a sense sent Him to His Cross. But Judas did not TEACH in error; while not accepting Christ as the Messiah.

On, and ONLY on all matters to be believed and accepted Faith matters and Moral teaching our Catholic Church cannot; absolutely cannot teach in error. These two categories are encapsulated under the Defined Dogma of “Infallibility”; based on the following bible teachings:

Mt. 10:1-8 Christ actually shares some of His Godly powers with His Apostles

Mt. 16:15-19 Christ give ALL of the Key’s to heaven access to Peter and his successors** Mt.10:6-7 compared to Mk. 16:14-15 & & Mt 28:16-20** AND commits that the gate of HELL [Satan] shall never prevail against Her [Mother Church] & v. 20: Christ commits to being with HIS Church until the end of time, so we can know your premise is wrong. Christ cannot lie!

John 17: 11-26 Cf. where Christ sends the Apostles “as the Father sent me, so TOO do I send YOU” repeated in John 20:21

Jn. 17:20 Jesus literally gives Himself as the Personal warranty of these powers.

Mk.16:14-15 Christ specifically, precisely and exclusively commands “THEM” to go forth and teach the entire world; this is further clarified in Mt. 28:16-20 where Jesus says Cf. “YOU GO!”; “YOU teach all that I have taught to you”
As space here is wisely limited, I need to be brief:

Here is a site for those desiring greater detail of examples misunderstood by the OP as being “taught by the Church”:o

biblescholars.org/2013/05/heresies-controversies-schisms-early-church-part-ii.html

Acts 20: 28-30 “Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them”

**2 Pet. 2: 1-2 **“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled”

Throughout the entire history of the Church, there have been heresies and heretics; BUT these are not “Church” teachings: they are different men at different time trying to dictate to GOD what His truths are. And yes there have been some called heretics, who were from within the church; BUT not speaking or teaching officially on behalf of Her.
There has been notable Schisms such as the Great Eastern Schism of 1054 and the Protestant Reformation in the 16th. Century; very often led by dissident “Catholic Priest” who too left in Schisms to establish their own versions of what they thought God’s Faith ought to teach and be.

And even in our times, we have seen men from within the Universal-world-wide Church try to leverage their positions of authority to change long defined, binding, and unbreakable Church Doctrines on marriage and the necessary conditions to validly and licitly participate in Her Sacramental Life. But these men do not speak for “the Church”; they are at best expressing their own views of what the Church; and therefore God must do. Causing much confusion and distress; BUT in the end not changing what God has already Ordained, Commanded or Mandated.

Truth, like God, Like God’s One True Church & One True set of Faith beliefs** [Eph. 4:1-7**], are as they MUST be; singular per defined issue.

While the passages you point out do, in some cases refer to members of the Catholic Church; NONE of them refer to actual “Church Teaching in Error” on Faith beliefs and Moral absolutes. Rather they far more often fall into Schisms and heresies; rebuked by the Church; not as you suggested, actually taught “by Her.” Amen!

**1st. Tim. 3: 14-15 **“ These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” [SINGULAR]

God Bless you
,
Patrick**


#16

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