How could the universe and life come into existence without God? How could life evolve without God?

The creation of the universe is history and we cannot change history.

Where is the science to show how the universe and life came into existence without God?

For the purpose of this thread, can we define God as the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

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That gives me a problem. God did not create Himself as He is uncreated. Neither did God create the first life, since He Himself is a living God. At best God created everything except Himself.

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There isn"t any.

Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along please. Thank you.

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An atheist could likewise ask “where is the science to show how the universe and life came into existence WITH God”.

Fair enough, i don’t want to cause you any problems.

How did the universe and life start by natural causes? And without any help from from a God who created everything except himself.

Atheists claim the science high ground. So it should not be unreasonable to ask; where is the evidence to show that the universe and life started by natural causes.

I’m obviously a theist, but I think this topic could be approached with more care. An atheist might not think the universe ever began. And if they believe the universe began to exist without a cause and that must be accepted as a brute fact, then obviously science would be unable to show it, because if there is no cause then they cannot show you the cause you’re asking for. There’s nothing for science to measure on that front.

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Well said. The concept of “beginning” presupposes “time”, and since time cannot even be defined outside the universe, the question is meaningless. Just like the question: “what exists on the reverse side of the Mobius strip?” is a nonsensical question. As for “life”, there are is a problem there. There is no clear definition of “life”. Are viruses “alive”?

In the very science that you are referring to.

By agreeing that God did not create Himself, then you also agree that God did not create life, since He Himself is alive. If God is eternal and uncreated then life is also eternal and uncreated since God is a living God.

Whether or not God created the universe depends on the definition of “universe”. The OP says:

  • “For the purpose of this thread, can we define God as the creator of all that is seen and unseen.”

From that I assume that you are talking about more than the material STEM universe. If that is the case then we are talking about the philosophical “All That Exists” (ATE) universe. Since God exists, then He is a part of the ATE universe. Since God is eternal then the ATE universe is also eternal. Hence, by the Kalaam argument the ATE universe did not have a cause/creator. Also anything outside the ATE universe does not exist, by definition, hence there is no existing external cause for the ATE universe.

God may have created some parts of the ATE universe, but He did not create the entire ATE universe.

The difference between atheism (which is really pantheism) and theism is boiled down to whether the principle by which the cosmos came into being and/or is sustained in being is a distinct, self-actualized, self-sustaining substance (God by definition) or the cosmos itself is this self-actualized, self-sustaining substance.

Once you look at it this way, the answer seems pretty obvious, since the cosmos is clearly a composite of finite substances with potentiality and actuality, even at the basic levels of matter and energy, rather than a perfectly simple, self-actualized substance.

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Nope. It’s not there.

You’ll forgive me if I dismiss the notion of rejecting a massive portion of well-established science.

Certainly, but that’s not happening in any post I’ve made. At all.

It can’t for there to be movement and matter there has to be a immovable force that neither has begining or end but is in a constant state that force being God.

Thermal Dynamics teaches us energy can neither be created or destroyed that energy is immovable we would call it God the first mover.

It’s like a kid pulling back a race car and letting it go.

More accurately for that kid to be God he has to always have been no beginning or end eternally in an unchanging state of existence.

But if the kid is not then he’s not the original mover there can’t be anything prior for that kid to be the original mover.

So say the kid is eternal he not only creates the matter that becomes the car and all its working parts but also the track and since he is a inexhaustible source of energy all matter proceeeds from him.

We know that since this energy source is an infinite source of power it requires an infinite being that is not depleted by creation proceeding from itself an immovable source.

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There is no scientific theory yet for this.

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I think you’ll find that a belief in the second option is the result of atheism, not the cause.

Science cannot prove that the universe created itself. There are many things science doesn’t have an explanation for, like dark matter and dark energy. And that’s ok.

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I think you are right.

Atheists bear witness to God, as G. K. Chesterton quipped: “Without God, there could be no atheists.”

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