How COVID-19 KILLS--I'm a Surgeon--And why we can't save you

Good grief.

And goodbye.

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This forum never lets me down. You think you’re going to discuss an expert’s opinion on a relevant issue but it always turns into political mud slinging by the 10th post.

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I am 68 years old, overweight, take high blood pressure medication and have a history of
asthma. I do not want to get this!

If I do get it, I pray I will be in the 80% group and not the 20% group!

The video was helpful, but I could have done without the foul language he used at
times.

I hope he is wrong about the numbers.

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I think the President is fine. Everyone he’s up there with during the briefings has or most likely has been tested given the nature of their job. I don’t’ see anyone sick and sneezing and coughing on him. It’s know that the virus is passed mainly through air droplets, and contaminated surface contact.

I’m not sure how others are behaiving around the country but I know where I am people have been staying inside, all stores except essential stores are closed and we are taking good precautions. If people are out walking their dogs or going for a walk for fresh air, they are keeping their distance from one and other too.

This is an interesting site that keeps track of social distancing through cell phone data and is scoring states.

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Wait a minute. Are you saying that “promising drugs” should be used on people even though the drugs might harm or kill them? I think it’s bad enough the FDA doesn’t always get it right, but do we also need to be distributing drugs which have not been sufficiently tested as being safe and effective?

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Really? Is that a way to speak to other forum members. I’ve put myself into self-isolation this morning as I woke up coughing and keep doing so intermittently with a very dry cough. I can also feel my temperature rising. I’m overweight but I don’t smoke or drink and am fairly physically active despite being a bit chubby and normally walk at least 10-12,000 steps a day. I’d rather not infect large numbers of people though. I might just have a cold but I work for a chain of supermarkets and I’d rather be at home for a week than infect the public.

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sallybutler . . .

The President Is still giving talks where he is way too close to people who could end up killing him.

The President was giving talks where he was way too close to people who could end up killing him last year too as influenza is a consideration every year.

Obama too during the pandemic of 2009.

And NOBODY here has said that everything is “hunky dory”. NOBODY.

But many people refuse to be ruled by fear and panic.

This is serious to be sure.
And just as surely there are reasonable things we can do.

What is NOT reasonable is to
tank the economy,
turn our country into a proverbial Venezuela,
and then have to go out and deal with Corona Virus AFTER that anyway.

Common sense measures are reasonable (appropriate distancing).

Now we need asap AMERICAN MADE . . . .

  • Point of care rapid testing to be ubiquitous.

  • Gloves

  • N-95 masks.

  • Hand sanitizer.

  • Ubiquitous medication regimens to minimize severity.

  • We need to get back to work.

  • And we need to open our Churches up! (Including the Mass.)

We cannot fearfully hole-up forever.

And when we DO finally come out of our homes,
the Wuhan Corona Virus will still be here.

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That is a decision for the hierarchy to make, not for the president of the USA.

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We cannot fearfully hole-up forever.

But you’re only being asked to for a few months.

I don’t really see how churches and workplaces can open without them being a massive health risk. Your country already has the largest number of infected.

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Have you missed the fact that coronavirus can be spread by those who don’t show any symptoms yet?

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Have you missed the fact that I said that in my post? BUT more IMPORTANTLY have you missed the fact the mode of transmission by those asymptomatic is STILL air droplets and contact surface as SCIENCE shows?

It’s the simple throat-clearing cough or an unwitting sneeze that an asymptomatic person has that can send millions of highly infectious viral particles into the air as explained below.

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If we are going to condemn hype, it is important that we not hype. Smallpox had a 30% mortality rate. Smallpox is to COVID19 as COVID19 is to the flu. It was more deadly. Neither is magic. Spread can still occur, but must occur through contact with the virus, either on a surface or through respiratory droplets. Education is still more useful than denial or hype. I fear all the overload of information, some true, some not, keeps obscuring the basic way to slow this spread; decontamination, hand-washing, distancing. These odd quarantines that are not quarantines will only work if the other three are observed strictly, and they cannot hardly be enforced by law.

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Last I heard they had a name for that.
Human experimentation.
Then there were Neurenburg standards that began to emerge after WWII. AND some prominent atrocity like experimentation with black populations in Toskegee Alabama, with dangerous strains of VD. Oh yeah, we got a history of experimenting that began in modern times with Mengelle.

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Human experimentation is scientific and necessary. It is not a Nazi thing, but a scientific step. There is nothing inherently ethical in the FDA system as opposed to other systems of drug testing, as long as participants know what they are doing, as we all do every time we take a prescription. Those long warning labels on drugs? Those are a result of human experimentation, and one that is on-going each time medicine is taken.

This talk of Mengelle had no part in whether we should fast track drugs or not. As in most things, it is a balance of whether life is better spared by moving faster, or slower. Anyone personally can always choose to opt our of taking some newer, or experimental, treatment if they deem their chances are better without it.

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I rarely draw from and talk about my experiences on these forums, but your post suggests I should this once.
My first forays into the legal area involving human experimentation involved a case I handled in the 90s.
As a background the Nuerenberg trials did in fact opperate to generate what is modern precedent in human experimentation.
So the NAZI hyperbole can remain outside of the discussion while the pertinent precedent can enter.
Next
You make one point that is correct.
A great deal of human experimentation precedent and it’s practice involves CONSENT.
WHAT IS KNOWING, INFORMED CONSENT? This is an involved legal/medical question that is fact specific.
Another issue that always seemed prominent involves TESTING PROTOCOLS. ADEQUACY AND HOW PROFICIENTLY THEY ARE MONITORED.
When you say it is a ballance between
" Fast and slow" this is only true within the bounds of standards and ethics( hence… the body of law beginning at nurenberg).
THIS IS NOT MEDICAL PRACTICE, so medical standards of care are basically substituted for via adequate testing protocols and adherence to them.
PS
The NAZI hyperbole is distracting but it does make a valid point.
Human experimentation does not include the medical ethics and standards that are present with actual doctor patient relationships. This leaves," SUBJECTS" in a status that begins with an ethics and dignity below that of " patient"
If you fail to adhere to good practice in terms of generating an adequate and ethical testing protocols, KNOWING CONSENT, and adequate monitoring, the floor is lowered furthur. You start to pass into the ethical questions that they faced in Nurenberg. That were violated in Tuskegee.

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No, actually, you didn’t.
But you DID say "I think the President is fine. Everyone he’s up there with during the briefings has or most likely has been tested given the nature of their job. I don’t’ see anyone sick and sneezing and coughing on him."

That is interesting. All the gyms and playgrounds in the St. Louis metropolitan area are closed. :frowning: I’m betting that all the local communities that are threatened by this virus have enacted the same bans. It’s eerie to be out walking and see these playgrounds empty.

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It’s no surprise that you would twist my words to make your point. Anyone reading this thread would know my comment was meant about people preaching about their own ideas about the virus, and not about Catholicism. But if that cheered you up to write that somehow, good for you.

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It is important that we recognize the difference between denial/hype vs reasonable projections, and take the actions that we need to take now - or frankly should have taken a month ago, to avoid the risk of health care catastrophe.

it is critical that the messaging is clear and steady and that the behavior of those providing the message models actions that people need to take and underscore the gravity of their taking such actions.

Feel better soon, Jharek.

I reckon we will all end up being exposed to this at some point. The holing up is for purposes of prolonging the likely inevitable in hopes of not overwhelming the hospitals, so people who have serious cases at least have a chance of survival and so we don’t get into triage situations and have bodies stacked up at the morgues. Also if we can somehow delay exposure, the virus may mutate, or disappear in hotter weather, or a vaccine may emerge.

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