How do I rebutt these attacks


#1

This was a responce to me saying that the catholic church is one true church…

it ddn’t even become the self styled “universal church” until the fourt century

This was a responce from him after using the inquasition card, I called out all the horrible deeds protestants did…

and today, the catholic church still is a vehicle for despicable acs
sadako, the other churches today are nowhere near the depravity associated with the catholic church, nor ever were.

This is his claim to the catholic church being the first true curch…

not true sadako, look at the history
Coral: even the catholic encyclopedia does not claim that

This is one again that tries to show the fallocy of catholicism being the first…

Jesus Chris was NOT a Catholic, he was a JEW!! he had NOTHING to do with Catholicism

and another

catholicism was started in rome
the city of pagans
how good can it be

actually constantinople


#2

You don’t. Stop arguing with 14 year olds. They already know everything.


#3

Tell them that you respect him and value him opinion, but that you are going to ask him to produce some sources. Even if its just a leaflet or something. That way you can deal with not only his conclusions but the credibility of the statements of fact.

By the way, they sound like the same stereotypical allegations that have been around for years. You should have no trouble addressing them all. But remember, he probably believes them all and will probably be embarassed and perhaps defensive when he finds out the truth. Make it clear that he can acknowledge he got these things wrong without him being wrong on everything he has every claimed. There are some who have legimate problems with some aspects of the Church.

Check this out too…


#4

Such arguments really don’t deserve a response, except in that he is a sincre individual (almost certainly)…

  1. “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic [universal] Church.”
  • Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, 105 CE :smiley:
  1. Ask him to substantiate his claims with real examples… keep him on the defensive. P.S. ALL churches have examples of depravity within them… Anti-Catholicism, the last accepted prejudice.

  2. Where in the Catholic Encyclopedia IS THAT???

  3. Jesus was a Christian… To be Christian is to be Catholic… Ask him how “Jewish” he is… post his response and we can dissect his “Jewishness”. He is probably (almost surely) inconsistent.

I was once engrossed in similar (gross) minsunderstandings of the true faith… but one day God reached me in a way he never had before… in time, the dawn will rise over him as well… pray for Him, and I will too.

Yours in the faith,

  • Hugo.

#5

This is how I would answer this person:

it ddn’t even become the self styled “universal church” until the fourt century

Where is the proof that it didn’t become the “universal church until the fourth century”.
rebutting your point…

“The Church is Catholic or universal because she subsists in all ages, teaches all nations, and is the source of all Truth.”

(Basic Catechism of Christian Doctrine)

and today, the catholic church still is a vehicle for despicable acs
sadako, the other churches today are nowhere near the depravity associated with the catholic church, nor ever were.

As Our Lord was persecuted, so is HIS church persecuted - as Our Lord says - St John Chapt 15 verse 18-20 "

If the World hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you"
If you had been of the world, the world would love its own : but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember my word that I said to you : The servant is not gretaer than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you : if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.
John Chp 15 23 “He that hateth me, hateth my Father also”.

MY POINT EXACTLY:::

On the claim that the Catholic Church was the first true church

not true sadako, look at the history
Coral: even the catholic encyclopedia does not claim that/QUOTE]

[quote]Catholics believe that theirs is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, firstly because theirs is the only Christian Church that goes back in history to the time of Christ; secondly because theirs is the only Christian Church which possesses the invincible unity, the intrinsic holiness, teh continual universality and the indisputable apostolicity which Christ said would distinguish His true Church; and thirdly, because the Apostles and primitive Church Fathers, who certainly were members of Christ’s true Church, all professesed membership in this same Catholic Church. “Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude of believes be; even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church” Ignatius of Antioch. Jesus said There shall be one fold and one shepherd.

Jesus Chris was NOT a Catholic, he was a JEW!! he had NOTHING to do with Catholicism -

Agree, Jesus was NOT a Catholic, but he founded HIS Church which was the Catholic (universal) Church.

Matt 16:17-19

And Jesus answering said to him : Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona : because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee : That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven : and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven./QUOTE]

and John 21:15-17

[quote]When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter : Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him : Feed my lambs. He saith to him again : Simon son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him : Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him : Feed my lambs. He said to him the third time : Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time : Lovest thou me? And he said to him : Lord, thou knowest all things : thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him : Feed my sheep.

[/quote]

where is your proof that he had nothing to do with catholicism???

catholicism was started in rome
the city of pagans
how good can it be

“Only gradually and not without argument and even friction among brethren did the idea of Catholicity, that is universality, come to dominate the minds of the early Jewish Christians and set the pattern for their future work. From the second century onwards the word Catholic was in general use by Christian Writers” (A short history of the Catholic Church by Denis Meadows).

Catholicism was not started in Rome -
St Peter was the Bishop of Antioch before he moved to Rome.

“In Jerusalem was assembled the Christian Church - Christ’s Virgin Mother, the headstrong, passionate Simon Peter to whom had been committed the keys of of the new Kingdom, the ten others of the original twelve, and one Matthias recently elected by ballot to replace the apostate Judas. In addition to these - the Church’s mother and patroness and its first hierarchy - were other faithful disciples, making up a total of 120 people says the author of acts of apostles…then came the descent of the Holy Ghost” etc

St Ignatius was the first writer to use the term Catholic Church in his writings to the christians in Smyrna in the year 107, he used this term.

That should about answer it…
[/quote]


#6

The first thing you need to do is realize that when he or anyone else makes an assertion like that, they have placed the burden of proof on themselves. He cannot tell you that the Catholic Church didn’t begin until the 4th century (or whatever) and then leave you with the burden of proving him wrong! That is totally rediculous…unfortunately that is exactly how many Protestants debate, I have experienced this myself many times.

If he is not willing, or better yet unable, to back up his claims with valid sources, then you win the debate right then and there without saying a word. He would actually be disqualified in a formal debate setting.

It is very important that you do not try to answer him back, if you do that you are falling into his trap. Make him back up his own claims and you back up yours. He will not be willing to play by the rules because he is his information is false and you will be rid of him once and for all.


#7

St. Ireneaus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 1
2. As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. **She also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. **For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions136 of the world. But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shineth everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth. Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrines different from these (for no one is greater than the Master); nor, on the other hand, will he who is deficient in power of expression inflict injury on the tradition.

Cardinal Gibbons, “Faith of Our Fathers” quoting Origen,

“In all Greece, and in all barbarous races within our world, there are tens of thousands who have left their national law and customary gods for the law of Moses and the Word of Jesus Christ, though to adhere to that law is to incur the hatred of idolaters and the risk of death besides to have embraced that Word… in so few years, in spite of the attack made on us, even to the loss of life or property, and with no great store of teachers, the preaching of that Word has found its way into every part of the world… doubtless it is a work greater than any work of man.” (Gibbons, 32)

**“We must hold fast to the Christian religion and to the communion of that Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by those who belong to her, but also by all her enemies. ** Whether they will it or not, the very heretics themselves and followers of schism, when they converse, not with their own but with outsiders, call that only Catholic which is really Catholic. For they cannot be understood unless they distinguish her by that name, by which she is known throughout the whole earth.” (Augustine, On the Veneration of Relics, Ch. 7 par. 12).

Those are some helpful quotes. There are of course many more. Of course, any church could call itself “Catholic” but only the truly catholic, universal church could rightly be called so, and if you look at what those guys believed (well, Origen excluded, notice he’s not “St. Origen,” he’s just a “Father”), and it’s obviously “Roman Catholic” doctrines.


#8

[quote=Valtiel]This was a response to me saying that the catholic church is one true church…

it din’t even become the self styled "universal church

" until the fourth century

This is his claim to the catholic church being the first true church…

not true sadako, look at the history
Coral: even the catholic encyclopedia does not claim that

My my, He actually believes something that is NOT in the Bible!! There is hope…
This is one again that tries to show the fallacy of catholicism being the first…

[/quote]

catholicism was started in rome the city of pagans
how good can it be actually constantinople

I respond:

  1. The Roman Church’s Faith is Known and Proclaimed Throughout the Whole World from Early INSPIRED writings of Scripture:
    (Rom.1:8); “First I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith (the Roman Church’s faith) is proclaimed in all the world” or as the King James Version says, “…your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.” Think about the significance of this inspired statement: To no other local church does St. Paul give that mark of distinction, i.e., that their faith is “proclaimed throughout the whole world”.

What is the “faith” of the Church of Rome? It must be what the Roman Church believes and teaches as God’s revealed truths. Thus, it is what the Church of Rome believes, and thus teaches, which is known and proclaimed throughout the whole world. But shouldn’t it be God’s Word, His revealed truths, which should be known and proclaimed throughout the whole world? Then it can only be that what the Church of Rome believes and teaches is in fact God’s Word, that is, His revealed truths which men must believe if they are to have the true faith of Christ which saves.

The qualification, “throughout the whole world,” should remind us of the meaning of the word “catholic,” which means world-wide or universal. Thus, here in the Bible the Church of Rome and “catholic” are immediately associated while the Christian faith was in its infancy and still being formed (this is so even before most of the New Testament was written -let alone compiled under one cover—by the Church of Rome).

**. (2 Tim.3:16), **…*all *Scripture is inspired by God, and is thus “profitable for teaching, for correction” etc…the Holy Spirit must be teaching us something concerning the Church at Rome from this inspired greeting that Paul gives to that Church. And what we can learn from this is the pre-eminent stature the Church in Rome already held which led St. Paul to greet it in this way. It is only the Roman Church’s faith that is proclaimed throughout the whole world. Again, what does this imply? The faith (i.e., teaching/beliefs) of the Roman Church is the faith received by the Church throughout the whole world. The Church of Jesus Christ is then Roman Catholic.

Taken from:
[size=3]THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

[size=3]A Human Invention or[/size] Divine Institution?

The Biblical and Historical Witness

By Adam S. Miller

Continued on next post;
[/size]


#9
  1. The Roman Church is Filled with All Knowledge ,

**(Rom 15:14) **And I myself also, my brethren, am assured of you, that you also are full of love, replenished with all knowledge, so that you are able to admonish one another. (Full of knowledge BEFORE Paul ever gets there to teach.)

(1 Tim.2:4) It is God’s desire for all to come to the knowledge of the truth

  1. The Roman Church is Respected and Saluted by All the Local Churches of Christ .
    Saluting is a sign of respect to a higher authority and submission to its commands.
    (Rom 16:16-18) 16 Salute one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ salute you. 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. 18 For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent.
  2. God Will Crush Satan Under the Feet of the Church of Rome .
    RE:

catholicism was started in rome the city of pagans
how good can it be actually constantinople

(Rom 16:20) And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet speedily. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
What got crushed under the feet of the Roman Church? PAGAN ROME!
Very significant passage in Romans which points to the unique authority and status possessed by the Roman Church.
NO other local church mentioned in the NT is accorded. God will crush Satan under the feet of the Church of Rome. God is revealing here a unique role and authority held by the Roman Church. To no other local church is this privilege or role given.
In the Bible, to be under someone’s feet is to be under their authority and power.
In Psalm 47:3 we are told that God will put the nations under the feet of Israel. This reveals that Israel was especially privileged and pre-eminent as God’s chosen people with whom he made a covenant.

Yet, why is this unique privilege mentioned only to the Church of Rome? To no other Church is this status given.
It can only mean that the Bible is revealing to all who would read it that the Roman Church has the pre-eminent position of representing the New Covenant people of God; AND that it has been given a special privilege of representing the authority of God.

There is another important point: Now, all things are to be in subjection under the feet of Christ who is the head of the Church, his body (Eph.1:22). This includes Satan, who is surely Christ’s enemy (1 Cor.15:25). Yet, we are told in Romans 16:20 that God will crush Satan under the feet of the Church of Rome. So here we see that Jesus Christ and the Church of Rome are given the very same authority over the devil. This MUST mean that the Church of Rome is:

  1. Christ’s representative on earth, and,
  2. where the body of Christ, that is, the one universal (i.e. catholic) Church of Christ, is represented on earth. This must be, otherwise, the Roman Church would not have the status and role revealed here in chapter 16, verse 20.
    Read the rest about the unigueness of the Church of Rome by St Paul here.

Much more at that site

One last advice:
YOU ask the questions. That means YOU play offense, not defense.
He who plays offense is the one with the ball, and the only one who can score…unless he fumbles.

My concuise Definition of
Protestant: One who studies 1/3 of the Catholic Bible. Reads and Ignores 1/3 and never reads the last 1/3.


closed #10

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