How do i refute this protestant claim?


#1

they dont believe in purgatory,here’s the text

Ec.9:5 “The dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward.” Ec.9:10 "For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
thanks
marlo


#2

Well, I’m a protestant, but I’ll help you refute it anyway. It sounds like the argument is that since there is no conscious existence after death, there can be no purgatory.

All you have to do is read the whole passage where that verse is quoted. When you do, you’ll find that the reference point is “under the sun.” In other words, the author is writing from an earthly perspective. Of course we will no longer have any thoughts, plans, or anything under the sun, but it doesn’t follow that we won’t have them in heaven, hell, purgatory, or whatever.

To further strengthen the refutation, you’ll notice by reading the next verse that if you take this passage in an absolute sense , then it would also follow that we will never be resurrected, which it is unlikely the other person will be willing to admit.

Sam


#3

[quote=marlo]they dont believe in purgatory,here’s the text

Ec.9:5 “The dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward.” Ec.9:10 "For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
thanks
marlo

[/quote]

How about a contemplative spin on it? That way you could have a way to agree with the protestant and he will not know what to think. He will likely say he has never heard a Catholic talk like that.

Tell him that the Catholic Church has a great number of orders who follow the ancient apophatic tradition, which focuses on the mystery of God rather than what we think we know about Him.

A wonderful example of writing in this tradition is “The Cloud of the Unknowing.” Caution; do not give this book to just anyone but read the anonymous 14-15th century author’s own admonishments.

Also, the stanzas exposed in the Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross talk about how once a soul reaches interior silence, the soul dares to escape under cover of darkness to find its lover, who then succeeds in totally mortifying it even while caressing it.

In death, we let go of all our thinking of worldly things. None of their education is now doing us any good, any more than our material possessions or our physical carcasses. This “unthinking” is a critical step in entering into our final unknowing, which is the most childlike and wonderful way to experience closeness with God as we are purged from all our social programming and eventually right down backward to our original sin. This is the healing action of the Holy Spirit acting as Divine Therapist, who Himself is a person of God.

You can then offer that protestant the Good News that he/she does not have to die to begin the spiritual journey. Vatican II emphasized that holiness is for everyone, not just the cloisters but also religious and laity in active lives. We can actually enter into this purgative contemplation, which is a healing process (discussed in the Dark Night of the Soul) while still on this earth, thus bringing peace even before physical death. Offer him a copy of the Dark Night of the Soul. It has the most incredible description of pride around, which itself could be compelling to a protestant – especially an intellectual wannabe.

If none of that wins them over, or at least leaves them in a confused stupor, then casually ask them if they like Song of Songs? If they ask what you mean, just ask them if they like to read that particular book.

At this point they will then fascinate you with their insight on Song of Songs, or more likely forget what they were even talking about. :stuck_out_tongue:

Lately I’ve been approaching suspected protestants with an approach that seems to knock them off their guard. I say, “excuse me, I couldn’t help but notice that you have a Jesus license plate. Do you mind if I ask if you really like the beatitudes?” That question is so off-the-wall for them they don’t know what to say.

Alan


#4

Alan,

Your answer is certainly more interesting than mine. I think the next time a Jehovah’s Witness brings this scripture up to me, I’ll just say, “Rubber baby buggy bumpers.”

Sam


#5

2 Maccabees 12:46 states, “it is holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” Sounds like a refence to Purgatory doesn’t?


#6

[quote=ephphatha]Alan,

Your answer is certainly more interesting than mine. I think the next time a Jehovah’s Witness brings this scripture up to me, I’ll just say, “Rubber baby buggy bumpers.”

Sam
[/quote]

:rotfl:

Maybe you should keep a video camera on hand just in case!

Put it on webcam.latterdaygoaway.net

Alan


#7

[quote=Fieryjades]2 Maccabees 12:46 states, “it is holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” Sounds like a refence to Purgatory doesn’t?
[/quote]

Even if it is a reference to prgatory, I don’t think it’s going to have any effect on a protestant who doesn’t think 2 Maccabees is inspired by God.


#8

[quote=marlo]they dont believe in purgatory,here’s the text

Ec.9:5 “The dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward.”
[/quote]

Sounds like they don’t believe in heaven, nevermind purgatory.


#9

Those in Purgatory are really at the threshold of Heaven. Do Protestants believe that the souls in heaven are “in the grave” and “know nothing?”

The passage he quotes refers to “the grave.” Purgatory and Heaven are both beyond the grave.


#10

The main refutation is that the text is OLD TESTAMENT. In the Old Testament order, the dead went to Hades. Following the resurrection, things changed.


#11

Here’s a current thread on the same question:

forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=51097


#12

Hi,start with,1Peter3:18-22 and 1Peter4:1-6. Then to 1Corinthians3:10-16. Hope this helps!


#13

The same book ( If my memory serves me right) also states that an animal and person after death go to the same place.


closed #14

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