HOW do i refute this???


#1

A muslim friend of mine showed me this ona website to ‘prove’ to me that Jesus wasent God…and i was stumped.

**

God is All Knowing… but Jesus was not.

When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, “but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father.” (Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

**

God is All-Powerful… but Jesus was not.

**
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, “Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do…” (John 5:19) Again he said, “I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me.” (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God… but Jesus did have a God.

God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn’t this be read “Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?” Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord’s prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt.” (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans… but Jesus was flesh and blood.

While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said, " No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18) “Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.” (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24, “God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God ant any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him… but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.

Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28, “My Father is greater than I.” When someone referred to him as a “good master” in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded, “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God…” Further more, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, “I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me.” (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, “not my will but thine be done,” and in John 5:30, “I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me.” That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

I really need help.
**


#2

[size=2]He also said this,

**Mark 14:60-62 60And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? **

**61But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? **

62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

By his own words he proclaims that he is the son of God.

-D
[/size]


#3

it still leave all those questions open.


#4

Moslems call Jesus Ibn Maryam but not Ibn allah, so that passage is really all you need to blow out your Moslem friend’s errors. He has mistaken perfect harmony for too many chiefs and not enough indians…a perfect God hasn’t got those problems

This is also his problem in that he has no concept of the dual natures of Christ. So far as I know all but His rising from the dead was done in His human capacity as the Son of Man. This mystery is gonna go over his head anyway so I wouldn’t lose a lot of sleep over it.

This is what the ECF had to say about this issue…let him argue with the early church…Islam didn’t even come around until around 600 AD
catholic.com/library/Divinity_of_Chirst.asp
Pax vobiscum,


#5

Quote:

God is All Knowing… but Jesus was not.
When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, “but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father.” (Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

We believe God became a man, even a babe in need of a mother’s love. C ould not show man to himself if not limited in the way man is inherently limited. Could God stoop any lower? Could Love be shown any greater? Who better to show man how to bow down to the ground? Does the Quran have a greater love than this to reveal? As for judgement day why do muslims believe Jesus is coming again to judge the world?

All the arguments here are an attempt to deny the Christ came in the flesh. The pearls of Christian wisdom are used as tools against it. Like the ones you mentioned exploit Christian concepts that hinge on the belief that God chose to be encumbered with human flesh. Again, the teaching that a prophet doesn’t proclaim himself but has several witnesses that will answer on his behalf is a reality exploited by muslims by their reference that Christ never said He was God. You’ll find that most of their arguments have that characterisitic…

The Jewish people of Christ’s day lacked the ability to concieve humility of the degree revealed in the Word of God made Flesh.


#6

Read the chapters that contain those verses quoted so you understand the context that the are given.

Strange how that web site missed these verses.

John 5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but he also called God his own father, making himself equal to God.

John 5 :23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 8: 58 Jesus said to them, " Amen amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM."

John 10: 30 The Father and I are one.

Jesus was no prophet. It is your Moslem friend that has to reconcile these words of Jesus with his understanding of whom Jesus is.


#7

Finex do not fight this on your friends turf but on your turf.

There is no greater proof than John 1
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and** the word was God**


also John 8:58 directly relates to Ex 3:14. The jews knew this, that is why they wanted to stone Jesus.
Ex 3:14 - And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ " There are a ton of scriptures showing that Jesus is God.

To bring the fight to him show him the difference between Jesus and Mohammed. Jesus healed the sick, raised the dead, forgave sins and went to the cross. Mohammed was a theif a liar a murderer and a pedophile


#8

To suffer (to purchase salvation, by taking upon Himself the penalty for our sinfulness, to satisfy the strict demands of God’s divine justice), Christ had to be limited. There was some kind of “wall” between Himself as the Incarnation and the Trinity, which we can not hope to comprehend in a useful way, breached somewhat during His life, but only as the need arose (for example, to exhibit the Transfiguration, or to walk through the crowd intending to throw him off the precipice at Nazareth). The gospel verses which reveal that Christ as the Incarnation did not know the day or hour of the End in effect demonstrate that this knowledge was a casualty of the limitations of His Incarnation.


#9

“I and the Father are One.” John 10:30


#10

Thanks alot guy. God bless you.


#11

well christ claimed to be God as we can see from earlier quotes–John 8:58—he also rose from the dead (which can be proven) thus validating his claims—also as far as his knowledge goes–Catholics believe that Christ was not ignorant of anything–Benedict XV condemned that notion last century—traditionally the Church father sexplained mark 12:32 this way–that Christ had communicable knowledge and non-communicable knowledge–this, the end of he world, was part of Christ’s non-communicable knowledge—again we are not Protestants and leave these Judgments up to the Church.


#12

JMJ

Finex

HOW do i refute this???

A muslim friend of mine showed me this ona website to ‘prove’ to me that Jesus wasent God…and i was stumped.

Finex, I’ll try to respond with Bible Verses;

[list]
]Statement: God is All Knowing… but Jesus was not.*
[/list]**Response: **

Luke 21**
******14 Remember, you are not to prepare your defense beforehand,

15 for I myself shall give you wisdom in speaking that all your adversaries will be powerless to resist or refute.

(This dialog is repeated in **Matthew **10:20 “for it will not be you who speak but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you” - This time Jesus is referred to as “Father”)

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[font=Arial][/font]

John 10: 30/38

30 **“**The Father and I are one."

38 but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works**, **so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

Luke 10:21-24

21 At that very moment he rejoiced (in) the holy Spirit and said, "I give you praise, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike. 9 Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will.

22 All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him."

23 Turning to the disciples in private he said, "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see.

24 For I say to you, many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it."

**John 17:5 **

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.**

[list]
]Statement: God is All-Powerful… but Jesus was not**.*
[/list]Response:

John 1:10

10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him

John 10: 30

30 **“**The Father and I are one."

continued -


#13

JMJ
[list]
]Statement: God is All-Powerful… but Jesus was not**.*
[/list]** **

Response:** **

John 1:10

10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him** **

John 10: 30

30 ** “**The Father and I are one."

Romans 9:5**
**5 theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all 3 be blessed forever. Amen.


[list]
]Statement: God does not have a God… but Jesus did have a God.
[/list]
* **

**Response: **

John 8:19

19 So they said to him, “Where is your father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

[list]
*]Statement: According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans… but Jesus was flesh and blood.
[/list]Response:

Colossians 1:15-17

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

16 For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.

17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together


Philippians 2:5-8

5 Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus,

6 Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.

7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,

8 he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.

1 Timothy 3:16

16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

continued-


#14

JMJ
[list]
*]Statement: No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him… but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.
[/list]Response:

John 10: 30

30 **“**The Father and I are one."

Luke 6**
******2 Some Pharisees said, “Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

3 Jesus said to them in reply, "Have you not read what David did when he and those (who were) with him were hungry?

4 (How) he went into the house of God, took the bread of offering, 2 which only the priests could lawfully eat, ate of it, and shared it with his companions."

5 Then he said to them**, **“The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

Mark 2

27 Then he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, 16 not man for the sabbath.

28 That is why the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath."

Exodus 20**
******10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD, your God.

Matthew 1:23

23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means “God is with us.”

John 1:6-12

6 A man named John was sent from God.

7 He came for testimony, to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.

9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him.

11 He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him.

12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,

Romans 9:5

5 theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all 3 be blessed forever. Amen.

[list]
*]Statement: God does not have a God… but Jesus did have a God.
[/list]Response:

John 8:19

19 So they said to him, “Where is your father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”


#15

[list]
*]Statement: God does not have a God… but Jesus did have a God.
[/list]Response:

John 8:19

19 So they said to him, “Where is your father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

[list]
*]Statement: According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans… but Jesus was flesh and blood.
[/list]Response:

Colossians 1:15-17

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

16 For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.

17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together

Philippians 2:5-8

5 Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus,

6 Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.

7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,

8 he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.

1 Timothy 3:16

16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”


#16

[list]
*]Statement: No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him… but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.
[/list]Response:

John 10: 30

30 **“**The Father and I are one."

Luke 6

2 Some Pharisees said, “Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

3 Jesus said to them in reply, "Have you not read what David did when he and those (who were) with him were hungry?

4 (How) he went into the house of God, took the bread of offering, 2 which only the priests could lawfully eat, ate of it, and shared it with his companions."

5 Then he said to them**, **“The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

Mark 2

27 Then he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, 16 not man for the sabbath.

28 That is why the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath."

Exodus 20

10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD, your God.

Matthew 1:23

23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means “God is with us.”

John 1:6-12

6 A man named John was sent from God.

7 He came for testimony, to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him.

8 He was not the light, but came to testify to the light.

9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him.

11 He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him.

12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name,


#17

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