How do I reply to this? (re: Miracles, Hosts, etc.)


#1

How do I reply to someone that says the miracles such as the bleeding hosts, incorruptibles and stigmata are works of the devil trying to draw people into the Catholic church? You know how the story usually goes…the devil appearing as a good to deceive us.

This would be the same people who see the papacy as the anti-christ, yadda, yadda…

What power does satan actually have?


#2
  1. Nothing

OR

  1. You can’t defend the miracles with success as long as they believe the Church is evil. You have to get them to correctly see the Church first. The approach depends on the individual. If they are intellectual (which it sounds like they are not) then showing them the historical fact that the beliefs of the early Church were the same as those of the Catholic Church today may work. If they are emotional, then acquainting them with the life/writings of an appropriate saint and showing how he/she compares to the likes of Luther, Calvin and company may help.

Also, you can only contradict conclusions in two ways

  1. Pointing out the fallacies in their logic. This is bad idea since it just makes most people defensive.
  2. Showing that the facts they based it on are wrong. A better choice since they don’t feel at fault and false-facts are almost always the problem with these types of Protestants.

#3

Well, the Devil tries to use a facade of good to tempt us to do evil. What evil comes from somebody seeing the light due to these miracles?

If they join the church and live as good Catholics, then I don’t see how any evil comes from their conversion. Granted, one response is that the Church is worshipping the wrong God. However, to use this argument, they are basing their entire argument on something they cannot prove. Looking just at the facts, the world is no worse off with one more devout Catholic. That’s not what the Devil wants, and thus he won’t was his time on something that doesn’t advance his plan.

Eamon


#4

[quote=gracelife]How do I reply to someone that says the miracles such as the bleeding hosts, incorruptibles and stigmata are works of the devil trying to draw people into the Catholic church? You know how the story usually goes…the devil appearing as a good to deceive us.
[/quote]

I would say they are being hypocrites. I would remind them of this:

Matt.12
[22] Then a blind and dumb demoniac was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw.
[23] And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?”
[24] But when the Pharisees heard it they said, “It is only by Be-el’zebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.”
[25] Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand;
[26] and if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
[27] And if I cast out demons by Be-el’zebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.
[28] But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Unless they don’t believe in miracles at all, what about miracles wrought by Protestants? How do they judge between whether it is from God or not?

The simple truth is that if the miracles are related to Catholics or Catholicism, in their eyes it is automatically suspect.


#5

Just tell them that the devil is deceiving them into thinking he is working those miracles. Make them prove otherwise. Why should you be on the defensive?


#6

:thumbsup: Every Catholic (myself included) should have this tatooed on the back of their hand and look at it every time before they hit the “Submit Reply” button.

Actually, I think you could salvage the logical fallacy technique if you couched it in such a way that the opponent is led to draw that conclusion himself. It would take some creative writing–reminding me of the Italian news editor telling his writers to never fret about freedom of the press because freedom of the press is necessary only for bad writers.

Scott


#7

[quote=gracelife]How do I reply to someone that says the miracles such as the bleeding hosts, incorruptibles and stigmata are works of the devil trying to draw people into the Catholic church? You know how the story usually goes…the devil appearing as a good to deceive us.

This would be the same people who see the papacy as the anti-christ, yadda, yadda…

What power does satan actually have?
[/quote]

Satan does not have any power that was not given to him by God. Although a fallen angel, Lucifer once enjoyed being in one of the highest chiors of angels I believe, and some of his faculties far surpass our own in the fallen state. I once heard it put that Satan can move things from here or there, but only God can create or destroy. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong). Satan is a powerful spiritual being but there is no comparison to God (even though he tried). Thanks and God Bless.


#8

As Jesus said when he was accused of the same thing by the Pharisees (healing and driving out demons through Lucifer’s power),

“If the devil works against himself he divides his house, and a house divided against itself must fall.”

If a miracle encourages others to come to Jesus, to pray, to repent and reform their lives, it is not of the Devil.

As Jesus also said "You shall know them by their fruits." Look to the fruits the miracle has produced.


#9

[quote=slinky1882]Satan does not have any power that was not given to him by God. Although a fallen angel, Lucifer once enjoyed being in one of the highest chiors of angels I believe, and some of his faculties far surpass our own in the fallen state. I once heard it put that Satan can move things from here or there, but only God can create or destroy. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong). Satan is a powerful spiritual being but there is no comparison to God (even though he tried). Thanks and God Bless.
[/quote]

I don’t think there is any record of Satan healing anyone.


#10

[quote=gracelife]How do I reply to someone that says the miracles such as the bleeding hosts, incorruptibles and stigmata are works of the devil trying to draw people into the Catholic church? You know how the story usually goes…the devil appearing as a good to deceive us.

This would be the same people who see the papacy as the anti-christ, yadda, yadda…

What power does satan actually have?
[/quote]

As with anything else, one has to judge the fruits of such activity. does the net effect of these events led folks to worship God more or to worship Satan ? Satan does not work against himself. When so many folks are converted from sin and led to lead more spiritual lives, who benefits goodness or evil ?

When people are inspired more to pray to God and receive healings and conversions who benefits more, evil or goodness ?

Finally, look at the lives of the saints whose bodies remain uncorrupted by decay, where these folks devoted to the devil or devoted to God ? Would God allow Satan to use His friends or the bodies of His friends as instruments for evil ?

Ask your friends, was it Jesus or Satan who said, “take and eat for this is my Body” and was it Jesus or was it satan who said “this is my Blood…” ???

St. Justin in the first century wrote about the real and actual presence of Jesus in the Bread and wine. He said he believes because Jesus Himself told us this is true. Why is it that Protestants take everything in the Bible as literal truth but the most important thing they regard as a figure of speech ???

Ask your friends how they interpret Jesus Himself when he tells us, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His Blood, you will have no life within you. This was so controversial when Jesus said it, that some followers literally left Him, because they could not accept this. There is no question as to what Jesus meant by these statements.

Martin Luther himself does not question the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. The insanity that his successors have brought about as a result of his heresy has grown to unbelievable proportions. IT’s what happens when you stray from the true Church of Christ.

wc


#11

…sometimes all you can say is … for those that don’t believe, there is no explanation, and for those that do believe, no explanation is necessary…:thumbsup:

…not the best answer, but remember, all the proof in the world will not change their mind… that chore is for the Holy Ghost:thumbsup:

Peace:thumbsup:


#12

I would just nod then hand them their pills.


#13

Remind them that Jesus himself was accused of doing good by the power of the devil:whistle:


closed #14

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.