How do I respond to claims that Pope JohnXXIII was a freemason?


#1

I haven’t been able to find a catholic response to these claims. (Which are all over the place)

The closest thing to a response is this old thread that got closed without really coming to a conclusion. forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=206478 no one in the thread supplied “evidence”, but what do we make of this Portugal Newspaper article?whale.to/b/popexxii.html

I’m scared to research that FBI document, and the book mentioned “The Vatican Exposed” by Paul Williams.

These claims can’t be true. Help me debunk this.


#2

I’m not sure what “evidence” you would be trying to refute.

Chuck


#3

According to the newspaper article,(which makes a lot of claims) it also talks about that book and FBI document. These claims had to have come from somewhere, and I want to prove them false.


#4

I understand that, but you need to have the evidence in order to dispute it.

All I saw in the article was a bunch of assertions. People can claim anything thay want.

What evidence do they have to support those claims?

Letters from the Pope refering to his membership? The testimony from multiple parties who do not have a reason to lie? Pictures of him participating in a Masonic cermony?

Until you get something to address you’ve got nothing to prove. i.e. You can’t “prove” that he wasn’t a flying purple people eater either, but you don’t have any reason to accept a claim that he was until someone presents some actual evidence to that effect.

“it seems he might have participated in Istanbul” does not evidence make.

Chuck


#5

In two words:

“Prove it.”


#6

What if it is true; would it really matter in the scheme of salvation? There are all sorts of reasons not to say such things without evidence, but if it was conclusively proven beyond a shadow of a doubt it would only strengthen my faith in the lord, his church, and his popes. After all what is greater testimony that the lord is watching over us, that a saintly man became pope or that a servant of the devil himself held the seat of peter and yet we are still here and he is gone. Don’t turn your hairs grey over things beyond your control, especially if there is no evidence in support of their assertions.

Pax te Cum.
Sincerely,
Iggy


#7

Actually, here is the source of your distress; these claims do not in fact have to come from anywhere… they could in fact be completely fabricated. With such a ridiculous claim, it probably was.


#8

Well, this is a little disturbing.

angelfire.com/journal2/post/roncalli.html


#9

Beat me to it. But, I really doubt that someone who would regurgitate such rubbish has an open mind in the first place. Prayer for them is much more valuable than words.


#10

This.

Without evidence there is nothing to refute or respond to. First, your opponent must provide evidence. With no evidence, there is no logical reason to believe the claim.


#11

It’s a ridiculous claim. Respond by ignoring crackpots?


#12

It just got me worried because, with Vatican ii That the church isn’t as strict about other religions as it used to be. Now calling protestants our “separated brethren” instead of outright condemning them. And with the whole interfaith worship that’s been going on lately. It’s really scary. I know the church is against one world religion. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

Why are we worshiping with non Christians?


#13

God has it in hand. You live your life in sanctity according to the faith of our fathers handed down from the apostles, and trust that the lord shall raise up saints from among us as he always has for the sanctification and betterment of his church. Do not worry.


#14

Actually, I would insist on seeing it. In all likelihood, it has been misinterpreted, if it is even genuine. It seems odd to me that the FBI would report on a Vatican issue since its purpose is primarily internal to the U.S. (the CIA is supposed to be investigating international affairs).


#15

I know. Its just scary since that writing was from 1889 which is way before the second Vatican council. And it seems to have been correct in that we’re lax about other faiths. paving the way for the one world religion. Even EWTN says so. ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/CLOLOOK.TXT I just get worried. I want to protect the church!


#16

God will protect it, look at the apparitions of Mary. We know the outcome, we win. If you want to do your part say your rosary; pray and do penance and encourage those around you to do the same.

P.S. According to our lady of Akita a chastisement is coming where the world will be punished with fire if man does not repent pray and do penance. A similar message was given predicting WWII in our Ladies apparitions at Fatima, but Stay clear of Medjugoria, it is not an approved apparition.


#17

Yeppers, and why would either agency care enough to investigate if the Pope was a Freemason?

What possible national security interest could this information serve?

Chuck


#18

Thats nothing, Charlie Sheen is a Vatican assassin, he said so himself. :stuck_out_tongue:

BTW The FBI has field offices in almost every developed nation; they catch criminals and the CIA takes care of Military Intelligence; Two different things.


#19

I know. “The gates of Hell will not prevail” Its just really unsettling hearing or reading these kinds of claims. But Our lady claims to have said that there will be an “Eclipse of the Church.” What is that all about?

Can you reference me to which apparition your referring to in which Mary says that we win?

I’m sorry for asking such questions, I’m just really freaked out by this kind of stuff.


#20

If I recall rightly that was a later fabrication of one the seers of La Sallette. She gave one version when she was a child just after the apparitions, and another account when she was an old woman which contradicted her previous accounts and was condemned by the church, so pay it no never mind.

It is true however that Pope Leo XIII had a vision while at chapelin which the devil said, “I will destroy your church!”, and after this he heard Christ say, “And what would you need to do this?”. “Just a hundred years and a little more power over sinners.” said the devil. “You have the time; you have the power said Christ.” then the good pope saw visions of what awaited the world and the church in the 20th century. Immediately afterwords he penned the prayer to St.Michael. So yes it was prophesied that it would be a wretched hundred years, but that time is over and the new springtime is coming.


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