How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah? Jews use many Old Testament passages of prophecy to show that Jesus was not the messiah promised to them. How are we to defend our faith against Jewish people who argue this, and how do we deal with these passages?:shrug:

Here are some verses:
Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18;
Hosea 2:20-22;
Amos 9:13-15;
Micah 4:1-4;
Zechariah 8:23, 14:9;
Jeremiah 31:33-34
Ezekiel 37:26-28
Isaiah 43:5-6
Isaiah 11:2
and many more

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I’m new to the Catholic faith (baptized and confirmed this last Easter) but my Godfather and also my Parish’s Deacon, explained it to me in a general sense (and I imagine of course there was more too it than this) but simply they did not recognize him as the Messiah because Christ was the exact opposite of what they expected. They were waiting for another warrior-king like David and instead they get a man breaking social norms by sitting and eating with the poor, the sick, the prostitutes, other undesirables etc (walking right past the nobles). He upset the customs at the time and was quite radical in what He did. Anyways that’s just scratching at the surface. I’m sure someone more learned than I will be able to take it from here.

This questions has always intrigued me – I’ve never understood why the Jews didn’t accept Jesus as their Messiah – as far as I can remember, he fulfilled all their prophesies – so why didn’t they recognize Jesus as their Messiah and accept Him???

The Jewish answers I get to that question are that Jesus wan NOT the messiah and he did NOT fulfill the prophecies of what the messiah would do.

That’s definately a part of it. Here’s a good article that sorta gives little background about it.

I have always understood that Jesus was NOT the Jewish messiah. The Jewish Messiah was going to overthrow Rome and return the Jewish state to its former glory as it was under the reign of David. Jesus did not do that, so he is not the Messiah they were looking for.

3,250 years after Moses, and silence from heaven. :confused: As well, did not the Jewish “canon” end up being closed right about the time that a certain controversial Jew turned the world upside down? Opinions on the formulation of the Jewish canon of scripture seem to span the time from 200 “BCE” to 200 “CE” Uh, just what event was it that transformed the era into the “Common Era”? Like they say, timing is everything. I wonder when in human history God has ever allowed His chosen to walk in darkness for so long?

Regarding the prophets: Some Jews also reject them, holding solely to Torah.

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Well, there’s only one Messiah, not two different messiahs for the Jews and the Gentiles. Yes, Jesus Christ wasn’t what the Jews had in mind–they wanted the glory days of Joshua and David and Solomon where the Cannanites got conquered and destroyed. But the Cannanites weren’t put under the Ban and allowed to be conquered by the Jews because they were Gentiles, but because they sacrificed their children to Planned Pare–uh, molech. When the Jews started doing the same thing God punished them the same way that He had dealt with the Cannanites who came before them: conquest and exile (see 2 Kings 25). Thus, the Jews had no right to demand a Messiah who would conquer and destroy, which is why the real Messiah was prophesied not to conquer but to heal (see Isaiah 57:15-21).

You might want to read this series of posts where I discussed Christ as the Messiah with a Jew.

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:slight_smile:

My non-Catholic (orthodox) Jewish brethren usually make four major assumptions:

(i) There is no possible way that the New Testament is divinely inspired. It contains myth and invention, and is based only loosely on Judaism;

(ii) The phrase “the messiah” never appears in Scripture, only “messiahs” are mentioned. THE messiah is a concept which exists in the Talmud, and Talmudic interpretation of what is or is not messianic reference in Scripture is an aspect of divine oral tradition;

(iii) Any Christian understanding of what is or is not valid criteria for judging the identity of messiah is simply flawed. It comes from an ignorance of genuine Judaism, and the poor information they’ve been taught about what Scripture “really” says;

(iv) The concept of a Second Coming/Parousia is simply a Christian admission that Christ did NOT fulfill the obvious and clear messianic prophecies, but only vague ones which cannot be verified. In terms of bringing universal peace – something which would be clear – He “failed”; but on the other hand, Christians say he succeeded to doing things like being born in Bethlehem or born of a Virgin (both of which are rooted in ignorant translations and interpretations).

Phew! That about covers the main gist of the answer to your first question.

I think that, if you first spent some time looking at these core assumptions, you could begin to sort out for yourself – along with a good, solid Catholic understanding of things – where my Jewish brethren go wrong.

Really delving into the biggest weakness of all of this – that the NT can never, ever, EVER be considered reliable, let alone inspired – can really start to help you make some progress. After hearing enough Jews make ridiculous claims about why the NT is myth – the same sort of stuff the materialists have said for ages now – I really began to wonder about the truth of things. Contrary to what many Jews will say, yes the Resurrection does matter, it should not just be brushed aside, but investigated.

Likewise, don’t be fooled into thinking that Jews are anything like sola scriptura Protestants. Contrary to what many will argue – such as Tovia Singer – they without question do NOT draw their messianic understanding from only biblical sources, and the bible alone is not sufficient to arrive at a clear Jewish take on all of this.

There’s much to be said, and it would take years to say it. It may not be so necessary to try to delve into all of this, but if you do, prepare for a few months of serious thought in order to understand the Jewish position.

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aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

They claim that Jesus did not build the Third Temple, but what if the Third Temple is the Temple of our hearts?

They claim he did not gather all Jews back to Israel, but one could take that from a non-literalist point of view and ask, really, where is the land of Israel? Must it be a place that is physical, or is Israel more of an idea? Just a thought I had. If, indeed, a literal interpretation is required, then with the ending of the Holocaust (which means burnt offering, what a strange name, if you don’t understand the Jews and their history) the Jews have been brought back into Israel. Which ties into the idea of a second coming/ fullness of time approach.

They claim he did not usher in an era of peace, yet I cannot think of a more peaceful place than a truly devout christians heart.

I think the spread of knowledge of the heart of the Law, which is Love, has been spread very very well since the coming of Jesus the Christ.

They claim that he told us to not observe Torah Law, yet, Jesus himself said, in Matthew 5:17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.”

These are some of the reasons I think they are skewed in their understanding. I wish Scott Hahn were here >.< He could answer all the questions I have about the other stuff they talked about

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I find that prophecies like the Lord being in high honor among gentiles and knowledge of Him being spread all over the earth refers to Christianity. What constant sacrifice to the Lord that gentiles have? The mass. If they read the NT with an open mind they would see prophecies being fulfilled by Jesus. I am surprised how many can’t recognize baptism as the Lamb’s blood of Passover and Eucharist being the Paschal Lamb to consume.

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Maybe someone of the Jewish faith would like to weigh in on this?

Jesus wasn’t realy the kind of guy most Jews were looking for. The jews of biblical times had been opressed and controlled by one empire or another for over 700 years. First the Babelonians, then Persians, then Alexander the Great, the Helenic rulers of Egypt, and then finaly at the time of Jesus, the Romans. They had been 700 years without their own kingdom and they weren’t looking for a prophet, they were looking for a warrior-king to restore their kingdom. This is why the Romans were unnerved when people called Jesus the messiah, they were expecting him to incite a Jewish uprising. When the Jews found out Jesus had no plans to kick out the Romans they were rather disappointed.

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There have been any number of threads on the theme of ‘Why don’t Jews believe in Jesus?’

Here’s a recent one where Chosen People and I addressed a number of the usual themes.

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The Messiah ben David is by definition that man who fulfills all six of the criterion in the Jewish scriptures. From a Jewish perspective what makes Christian claims that Jesus was the Messiah ben David so remarkable, is that he did not fulfill a single one of the six criterion.

On the other hand, there is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments.

The six authentic Jewish Messianic criteria are:

  1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon
  2. be anointed King of Israel
  3. return the Jewish people to Israel
  4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
  5. bring peace to the world and end all war
  6. bring knowledge of God to the world

We see that each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is empirically verifiable and therefore faith is not required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah ben David. We can see if the Temple has been rebuilt, if all the Jews have returned to Israel, if the entire world believes in God and follows Torah, if the entire world is at peace.

Christianity couldn’t overcome the defect of their leader not fulfilling a single one of the six criteria, so they created the concept of “faith” in the Christian leader to overcome this defect. Of course, they were still stuck with the non fulfillment of the criteria for the Jewish Messiah ben David, so they also came up with the concept, which has no basis in Jewish scripture, of the “second coming”. So Christians say, Jesus didn’t have to fulfill the six criterion of the Jewish Messiah ben David ( (which ironically are the way to identify the Messiah ben David), and they say you can put off the fulfillment of these criterion, until Jesus comes back to life on earth a second time. However, if this is true, can’t anyone claim that a beloved deceased relative was a good and righteous man and is in fact the Messiah ben David?. Of course, They’ll have to wait until he returns to know if they are correct in their assumption, however they can claim to have “faith” that they are in fact correct.

That left Christianity with two problems. If the Christian leader didn’t bring about the state of things as stated in the six criteria, what did he do and under what other criteria can they claim that he was the Messiah ben David?

If we read the Christian scriptures, we see that the Christian leader made a couple of egregious misquotes of the Jewish scriptures. None the less, he did say a few really worthwhile things. However, it turns out that these things were lifted from the Jewish scriptures and presented as if original to Jesus in the Christian scriptures.

Here are just a few of many concrete examples:
Psalms 37;11
'but the humble shall inherit the earth, and delight in abundant peace"

becomes in Matthew 5:5 (the sermon on the mount)
‘Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth’

Psalms 24:3-4
“Who may ascend the mountain of Hashem and who may stand in the place of sanctity?One with clean hand and pure heart;”

becomes in Matthew 5:8
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God”

Lamentations 3:30
“Let one offer his cheek to the smiter, let him be filled with disgrace”

becomes in Matthew 5;39

“…but if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also…”

So Christianity found itself rejected by Jews, since from a Jewish perspective it was clear that Jesus did not fulfill the criteria of the Messiah ben David. In as much as he was rehashing Jewish scriptures, that too was not impressive to the Jews.

In this regard, it should be mentioned that Jesus is mentioned in the Torah as a test of the Jewish people’s faith to God and the eternal covenant:

Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13

א אֵת כָּל-הַדָּבָר, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם–אֹתוֹ תִשְׁמְרוּ, לַעֲשׂוֹת: לֹא-תֹסֵף עָלָיו, וְלֹא תִגְרַע מִמֶּנּוּ. {פ}

ב כִּי-יָקוּם בְּקִרְבְּךָ נָבִיא, אוֹ חֹלֵם חֲלוֹם; וְנָתַן אֵלֶיךָ אוֹת, אוֹ מוֹפֵת. ג וּבָא הָאוֹת וְהַמּוֹפֵת, אֲשֶׁר-דִּבֶּר אֵלֶיךָ לֵאמֹר: נֵלְכָה אַחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-יְדַעְתָּם–וְנָעָבְדֵם. ד לֹא תִשְׁמַע, אֶל-דִּבְרֵי הַנָּבִיא הַהוּא, אוֹ אֶל-חוֹלֵם הַחֲלוֹם, הַהוּא: כִּי מְנַסֶּה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, אֶתְכֶם, לָדַעַת הֲיִשְׁכֶם אֹהֲבִים אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, בְּכָל-לְבַבְכֶם וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁכֶם. ה אַחֲרֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם תֵּלֵכוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תִירָאוּ; וְאֶת-מִצְו‍ֹתָיו תִּשְׁמֹרוּ וּבְקֹלוֹ תִשְׁמָעוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹדוּ וּבוֹ תִדְבָּקוּן.

  1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

  2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,

  3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, “Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,”

  4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

  5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

Jesus is presented in the Christian scriptures as a prophet who performed signs, wonders and miracles. The concept of the son of God and the trinity are gods that the Jewish people did not know.

God tests the Jews to keep the eternal covenant between Him and the Jewish people. From a Jewish perspective, for a Jew to “believe” in Jesus is a failure of God’s test. While Judaism teaches that it is easier for the Gentile than for the Jew to get into the World to Come as the Gentile has only to uphold the seven Noahide commandments, the penalty of failing God’s test for a Jew is to be separated forever from God in the World to Come.

Matthew,Mark;Luke and John are the putative authors of their respective Gospels, only Matthew and John are mentioned as disciples and witnesses to to events in the life of Jesus. Mark and Luke did not claim to be eyewitnesses to events in Jesus’ life.

Now we know that the Gospel of Mark (who was not an eyewitness) was the first synoptic Gospel since Matthew copied about 90% of the Gospel of Mark (600 out of 660 verses) and Luke copied over 50% of the Gospel of Mark. Now if Matthew really was a disciple and a witness to events why would he need to copy Mark and rely so heavily of Marks version of events ? (why would he refer to himself in the third person in Matthew 9:9?). Which leaves us with John which contains material not found in Mark, contradicts events reported in Matthew and Luke and contains none of the" historical material" contained only in Matthew and Luke such as infancy and childhood.To make matters even more complicated, whenever they reported "historical material"l not found in Mark (on whose Gospel they obviously relied) and although they were not eyewitnesses, they contradict each other and make alterations and additions to Mark’s Jesus story.

The Epistles make no mention of the Gospels which strongly suggest that the Gospels did not exist until after the Epistles were written. Although this earliest Christian document was written much closer to the alleged lifetime of Jesus, the Epistles speak of a divine being with virtually no reference to physical events on earth or in history. There are no sayings of Jesus, or parables, or miracles or details about his life. There is no crucifixion mentioned, no empty tomb, no alleged rising from the tomb.

Although Christian scholars put forward that the Gospels existed in some form by the late first century of the common era, the first time there is a written reference to a Gospel is a reference to the Gospel of Mark in 125 c.e. and the first written reference to all four Gospels is in 175 c.e.

Now although Christians believe that a god had literally come down to earth, this was missed by every one of the 41 historians who lived during the first and early second century, who wrote about Judea and Rome and whose works have survived. Not a single one of them mentioned Jesus, his alleged disciples, his apostles or any of the miraculous events described in the Gospels.

The lack of sources outside of Christianity has led to reliance on forged passages from Josephus and even trying to interpret Talmudic passages as somehow referring to the Jesus figure. Now Jesus may have existed historically but there is little or no credible evidence supporting his existence.

The Jewish prophets have explicitly stated,that in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:

"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי–בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.

{In the Messianic Era} “Nations will walk by your [the Jewish People’s] light and kings by the brilliance of your shine” Isaiah 60:3
וְהָלְכוּ גוֹיִם, לְאוֹרֵךְ; וּמְלָכִים, לְנֹגַהּ זַרְחֵךְ.

"I will set you [the Jewish People] for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations, to open blind eyes [in the Messianic Age] Isaiah 42:6-7
וְאֶתֶּנְךָ לִבְרִית עָם–לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם.
לִפְקֹחַ, עֵינַיִם עִוְרוֹת

My dear friends,

As has already been hinted at several times in this thread, the exact prophecies of the Messiah were absolutely fulfilled by Jesus with His coming.

If it were so clear cut and easy to derive, then would that not become a matter of elimination of free will. Let me see, a man arrives on earth, clearly with the following attributes:

  1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon
  2. be anointed King of Israel
  3. return the Jewish people to Israel
  4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
  5. bring peace to the world and end all war
  6. bring knowledge of God to the world

Forgive me for saying this, but, which idiot on earth would NOT bow down and INSTANTLY worship this man as the LORD of ALL the visible and invisible! What would then become of our free will?

Would God not test the purity of our hearts with such things.

If God were to make Himself known to man with physical manifestations, then His business would in the field of SCIENCE, it would be “too” evident, there will be no free will!

Religion is a matter of the heart, so how would he test His servants? By making allegorical statements about His next coming. My friends, all these prophecies in Jewish Scripture and Tradition were SPIRITUALLY manifested in the coming of Jesus :slight_smile:

The tragedy is this, and quite ironic that these EXACT same mistakes are being made by the Catholics and the majority of the Christian world with the Coming of our Lord Jesus in His Second Coming in the glory of the Father.

Christianity expects physical clouds, physical trumpet blasts, a physical resurrection of the dead, etc etc, but I have news for you all my friends, Jesus has returned and I, Kam Fanaian, am a glorified body, spiritually arisen, born again in the spirit of our Lord Jesus, and I am following the plan He has given me, as a Baha’i, to bring about the unification of the entire human race.

Everyone else can sit back and say that I am crazy, or you can join this expanding, unified, global Baha’i community and be part of the unfurling of a new world Order, the likes of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.

The question is, will we in 100 years from now be talking about how could it be possible that the Christian world did not recognize Jesus on His “second” coming, just as the Jews did not recognize Him in His first coming…

The Jews missed out on the salvific grace of our Lord, will the Christians miss out on the salvific grace of partaking in constructing Gods Kingdom on earth?

God bless you all, and I pray for your hearts to be illumined with the truth :slight_smile:

Kam

Certain mental disorders have produced false messiahs, the kabbalah and other forms of mysticism have produced its share of false messiahs. Jesus did say there were to be many false Christs, and false prophets before he returns.

For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

(Matt. 24:24)

May God keep us all humble and discerning.

Micah

Hi Micah, I agree with you here, but may I introduce to you those that are false prophets that “perform great signs and wonders”:
(there are 100’s but here are just a few who came up on google)

  1. Sun Myung Moon (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_Church)

  2. Claude Vorilhon (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism)

  3. Jasmuheen (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia)

  4. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad)

  5. Ahn Sangh Hong (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Mission_Society_Church_of_God)

  6. Yahweh Ben Yahweh (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_ben_Yahweh)

Now these were just during the past 150 years…

lets also look at some false prophets at the time of Jesus:

Actually, again, too many to mention (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianic_claimants#List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants)

So, the question is, how can you be so sure that Jesus is the real Messiah?

Well, let me advise that “by their fruits ye shall know them”

Now, the challenge is to describe how the work being done by the followers of Baha’u’llah on every nation, land, island and territory on the globe, cannot be deemed as being of “goodly fruit”.?

When compared to the “false prophets” I’ve given examples of above, I think the difference is immeasurably great, similar to the immeasurably great difference between Jesus and the “other Messiah claimants” of His time…

So why cant the Christians be making the same mistakes as the Jews?

God bless my friend

Kam

Kam,

Baha’u’llah is a false manifestation of Jesus Christ. Baha’u’llah was a human being who was born, and who died. He did not bear the marks of the crucified Christ in his hands and in his feet. For scripture says, that when the Messiah returns that** they shall look upon him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him as for an only son.**
(Zech.12:10) The Jewish people did not mourn for Baha’u’llah.

When Jesus Christ returns he will not die, for he is eternal in his glorified human body,
and in his divinity.

Kam, I can only assume that you have been deceived by a false prophet in sheep’s clothing.

God be merciful to us all.

Micah.

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