How do refute the claim, "Do not judge others, yet you judge homosexuals?


#1

How do you refute the claim by a Non-Believers used against Christians who judge gays because of their acts. They say, you judge them but does not the Bible say, “Do not judge least you be judged?”

I have to say that Prophets of OT and NT, often warn of the evil immorality by judging them harshly. John, the Baptist judged King Herod for one example.

This post applies to all Christians (Catholic or Non-Catholic Christians).


#2

We don’t judge people, or shouldn’t, ever. We may make judgements about behaviours. In fact we can and must, otherwise we can’t form any sort of moral framework by which to decide how we ourselves should behave.

So we say ‘stealing is wrong’ ‘murder is wrong’ ‘adultery is wrong’ and ‘homosexual behaviours are wrong’ - we’re perfectly entitled to do that.


#3

Spiritual Works of Mercy

The seven practices of Catholic charity toward our neighbor’s soul:

» Convert the sinner

»** Instruct the ignorant**

» Counsel the doubtful

» Comfort the sorrowful

» Bear wrongs patiently

» Forgive injuries

» Pray for the living and the dead

These are based on the teaching of Christ and on Church practice since apostolic times.

The spiritual works of mercy are oriented toward the soul. The corporal works of mercy are oriented toward the body.

CCC
2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities.** Instructing, advising**…

John 20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 **Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
**

Do they think Jesus was judging when He quoted this verse ?


#4

the scripture says,

Matthew 7:1-5.

Matt. 7:1-5 Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

The scripture does not indicate that you should never judge. It merely is teaching you to apply the same standard to yourself before applying it to others because by the same way you judge others, you too will be judged.

It teaches you to avoid hypocrisy by fixing your faults before harping on the same faults in others.

Thats my eisegesis on the topic.


#5

I’ve always heard this as ‘admonish the sinner’, and I confess I am simply aghast at how it seems to have become the primary spiritual work of ‘mercy’ over all others. I’ve almost never seen it applied in the spirit of love and mercy; mostly it seems to have become an excuse for certain people to laugh and shout ‘ha! I’m better than you!’

When did such a sorry state of affairs come about? How did so many Catholics lose their focus on preaching the love and mercy of God, instead preferring to lord it over those they consider ‘disordered’?


#6

I think our Lord’s admonition against judgement goes to not knowing the cross or crosses another person carries. It doesn’t mean not stating objective truth about specific actions. We shouldn’t sit in judgement of those who sin, because we sin,but we also should not call sin anything else. We shouldn’t judge people who engage in sexual sin, but we shouldn’t fail to say that sexual sin is just that, SIN, and that there are consequences to sin. Does that make sense?


#7

Let me put it like this. As long as my friends and loved ones occasionally point out my faults I’ll know they still see me as basically on their level, albeit somewhat improveable, after all it’s what they do to each other.

If they stopped, whilst I continued engaging in stuff I knew they didn’t like, THAT would be the moment I would truly know they’d lost all respect and all hope for me, and truly thought they were better than me.


#8

Scarecrow hits the nail on the head…

The scripture does not indicate that you should never judge. It merely is teaching you to apply the same standard to yourself before applying it to others because by the same way you judge others, you too will be judged.

It teaches you to avoid hypocrisy by fixing your faults before harping on the same faults in others.



#9

Love the sinner. Hate the sin.


#10

If you have conviction that a certain act is sinful, and you see someone committing that sin, is it wrong to say “I believe that act is a sin?”

Is that being “judgmental?”


#11

It is not wrong to say that a sin is a sin, as it is instructing the ignorant which is a spiritual work of mercy. If we love our neighbor we want them to go to heaven, and when we see them doing something wrong we have an obligation to say so. The manner in which we say it is how we get into trouble. We have to be able to explain WHY it is a sin, or in the case of a person who does not believe in “sin,” why it is “wrong.” We must pray to the Holy Ghost for discernment on how to voice the truth, being gentle, firm, or hard. Jesus was not always soft spoken and kind. Let us remember His anger in the temple. Also, Jesus Himself said that he did not come to “judge” but He refuted bad behavior, whether it required a simple “You are forgiven” or using the harsher language “You fools!” This is where the gifts of the Holy Ghost come in very handy.


#12

Unfortuately…no one…especially the “sinner” can tell when the “love” begins and the “hate ends”…especially true for our gay and lesbian brothers and sister in their dealings with “Christians.”


#13

this is a pet peeve of mine. We cannot judge as in we have no right to condemn. But of course we can judge! How else do we know right from wrong? God has standards and rules and we know them because He has communicated them thru scripture and thru the Church! Jesus said by their fruit you will know them–this IS judging! For goodness sake! God gave all of us consciences, “natural law”.
Specifically as far as homosexuality goes, it is a disordered state. Homosexual sex is not any more or less sinful than any sex outside the proscribed formula of marriage–one man and one woman committed to each other in the sight of God and bound to each other by Holy Church in Sacrament and open to procreation.
It is not judging because we are not the Authority who put this in play.


#14

When did such a sorry state of affairs come about? How did so many Catholics lose their focus on preaching the love and mercy of God, instead preferring to lord it over those they consider ‘disordered’?

And you don’t see that in presenting this huge blanket generalization (without any real data to back up this assumption on your part) you yourself are standing in judgment and ‘lording it over those you considered disordered?’

Yes, some Catholics–indeed, any given person anywhere–may be guilty of error in this aspect, but that does not make the underlying principle erroneous. Further, it is often said, “To crooked eyes truth may wear a wry face.” (Not directed at anyone specifically, I haste to note).

IOW, if your–or my–judgment is disordered, then our perception of someone calling a practice of ours into question is already corrupted and so we might ‘feel’ that we are being persecuted and ‘judged’ when we are not. (People do get defensive, not only when they are SURE they are right, but also when they are NOT sure and really, really are hoping they can convince themselves they truly are rigiht.)


#15

Exactly, we expect our loved ones to help us grow.

What kind of friends/loved-ones would they be if they saw us in danger and said nothing.


#16

This claim comes up when one confronts a Christian about a teaching of the Church, then when one explains the teaching, it is twisted as an unfair judgement, go figure:shrug:

Really, if anyone that lives in a sinful situation, that is against Church teaching, is it not the accuser of the Christian that is pushing judgement by challenging the teaching? for are they not trying to justify their own sinful behaviour by calling something bad good, and because they cannot accept nor understand that teaching? then want to blame the Church? is that not being judgemental?

Personally I don’t go around seeking out and asking people about their sex lives, but if they want to know about the Church teachings concerning any matter, I’m going to let them know it to the best of my ability - is that being judgemental? On these forums I try to develop my thoughts and my arguments on many subjects as it relates to the Church and her teachings, and as it comes to judgement on certain situations and moral behavior it is like Scarecrow’s comments on Matthew 7:1-5, for there is a difference to judgement of behavoir and immoral conduct as to condemnation and judgement of one’s salvation. It is not hateful to point out behavoir that can do harm.

Fellow Christians and Catholics here are some suggested Rules to follow, Brethren, and if a man be overtaken in any fault, you, who are spiritual, instruct such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted Gal 6:1 and *Let us therefore love God: because God first hath loved us. **If any man say: I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother whom he seeth, how can he love God whom he seeth not? *[size=1]And this commandment we have from God, that he who loveth God love also his brother.[size=3] [size=1]1John 4:19 -21[/size][/size][/size]

[size=1][size=3][size=1]Sometimes it is hard for others to see our love, maybe it is in our presentation? and/or the seriousness of thier sin and/or their blindness to it?:shrug:[/size][/size]

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#17

Great job! :thumbsup:


#18

[Ezekiel 3:18-21]:

If I say to the wicked man, You shall surely die; and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his wicked conduct so that he may live: that wicked man shall die for his sin, but I will hold you responsible for his death. If, on the other hand, you have warned the wicked man, yet he has not turned away from his evil nor from his wicked conduct, then he shall die for his sin, but you shall save your life.

If a virtuous man turns away from virtue and does wrong when I place a stumbling block before him, he shall die. He shall die for his sin, and his virtuous deeds shall not be remembered; but I will hold you responsible for his death if you did not warn him. When, on the other hand, you have warned a virtuous man not to sin, and he has in fact not sinned, he shall surely live because of the warning, and you shall save your own life.


#19

love the sinner hate the sin.


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