One can be forgiven if they believe in a lie, its an error in judgment and they can’t be held morally responsible. If they believed in the lie that Jesus had a devil, because of this belief in a lie they wouldn’t go to Him for forgiveness in the first place. The lie prevented them. If they lied deliberately they sinned against the Holy Spirit by calling Him a devil, thats blashemy, a serious sin, mortal. They deliberately refused the source of forgiveness, in that case they can never be forgiven. In the first scenario they can be forgiven, because of ignorance In the second case they can never be forgiven because they knew what they were doing. Full knowledge, full consent, and a very serious matter, all three requirement for Mortal sin, the sin of eternal punishment, They condemned themselves. They could not change, to change you must be influenced by the graces from the Holy Spirit and they rejected Him so they remained in their sin. That’s why the sins against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.
I always feel I will never be able to do enough to make up for my sins. That I will always be imperfect and sinful and never amount to do anything good or useful. Not praying enough, not giving enough, being indifferent to my neighbors, etc
Thank God you are not judged on your feelings. If your conscience is clear, and you are trying your best to please God, be at peace. Because we have all the qualifications for receiving Jesus, He came for sinners, not for those that have no sin (and who is that?) say alleluia I qualify!. As long as you are sincerely trying, Jesus will make up for all our deficiencies. It is better to trust in God’s mercies, than to trust in any thing we can do. What we can do is limited, what He can do is infinite. Have courage, and never give up
and keep on trying and have good will.
Yes Animalis, this is all very nice theory.:sad_yes: Go and ask your priest if he believes that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is a prophesy that was written for the end times. And if so if he believes that Jesus will send two witnesses before the Great Tribulation starts, in fact they are the first ones to be martyred. Ask him, and then you come and tell me all about this again. :ehh:
In the love of the Church,
Here Ynotzap, I believe the problem is that they were seeing the signs Jesus did and could not recognize that no one could do those miracles without God being with him. They were not convinced, they were asking him for a sign from heaven, like if giving back the sight to a blind from birth, or any other of His miracles, were not a sign from heaven. Mk 8:11-12 and Mt 16:1-4
Now what I am saying is: if you can imagine the two witnesses bringing droughts and plagues? If you will be able to believe that they are sent by God?
Think about it and let me know,
In the love of the truth,
Yes, Layp, this is what normally heretics do. Some times they repent, other times they don’t, they carry on. You can see it in all the divisions that we have in Christendom.
In the love of the Church,
Dear Eif, I also thought in giving you a link about to: What is real love? How Christ wants me to love? It is the post #2, because they united two different threads together, the first post should follow the second. :mad:
Let me know if it helps.
In the love of God,
Yes DMC, this is exactly what I think that is why I like very much this quote that is telling us that if we believe but we are immoral we will not be save: :nope:
"21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ " Mt 7:24-27
In the love of the truth,
Dear Ynotzap, if the lie that you are talking about is a religious lie, then they do not have excuse, because He came to teach us the truth, and if you are in him you can not believe a lie. :nope:
“26 I write this to you about those who would deceive you; 27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.” 1 Jn 2:26-28
If you are talking about the religious authorities of His time, they did not want to believe. They saw their authority threaten and that was more important for them: they did not want to let go the power. In fact Jesus accused them of having nothing to do with the truth because there was not truth in them. Jn 8:44
In the love of the truth,
The Pharasees were envious and jealous of Jesus. “See how the people follow him, what will become of us?” Jesus called them a brood of wipers, hypocrits. He publicly reprimanded them. This enraged them. He also answered them when asked whether He was the Son of God an He said "…you say that I am. Having eyes that see not, and ears the hear not, because in seeing, and hearing you do not believe, so you remain in your blindness. Jesus was setting up His own crucifixion. He knew human nature and how to control it. He did say on the cross “Father forgive them for they know what they do”. Jesus is acknowledging that they were ignorant of the full truth, they judged as limited, mortal men. They were really handicapped, the Holy Spirit of Truth and Grace was not given until Jesus ascended into Heaven and took His place at the right Hand of the Father. So when the Jews sinned the possibility of forgiveness was always there. This leaves me to believe that when they said that Jesus had a devil, that they didn’t fully realize what this implied, or fully understood the seriousness of what they said. With God all things are possible. Jesus made known to us
how serious it is to blasphem against the Holy Spirit, and what a position it put us in.
If indeed there was full knowledge , full consent, and a serious matter, then they sinned mortally. I would think that they didn’t have full knowledge. When I stated that they had all three conditions, I retract my statements.if I judged them. Only God can judge correctly be cause He know all things.
(Please Ynotzap, when you want to quote from the Bible, write your passages, do not just quote like that)
You quote: “Father forgive them for they know what they do”. " You mean to say ‘they do not know’ .
Any way about this passage **“Father forgive them for they do not know what they do”. Lk 23:34 **there are two issues:
-He was speaking about the Roman soldiers that were crucifying him.
In fact when he died on the Cross and the sun was darken, the Centurion "praised God, and said, “Certainly this man was innocent!” " Lk 23:47 And also when speaking to Pilate, who told Jesus to answer his questions because it was in his power to save him, Jesus told him: “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.” Jn 19:11 In this way declaring, not his inocense but less responsability than the religious authorities.
-This passage is an insertion.
In the earliest manuscripts is not there!! Which makes sense for all what Jesus said against the Scribes and Pharisees will be a bit of a contradiction.
So if we leave it, he was talking about the Roman soldiers, if we leave out is also ok. But in no way he was refering to the religious authorities.:tsktsk:
**All this thinking of yours I see it out of place **because Jesus knew very well when he was telling them that their father was the devil, and if he said so it is because it was so. Jn 8:44 And when Jesus accused them of eternal sin for saying that he had an evil spirit. Mk 3:22, 28-30
Hope this helps to put things right.
In the love of the truth,
I am convinced that there is no way I can really convince you of much, maybe I’m wrong. I noticed that you give a lot of personal interpretation. Jesus didn’t promise each individual the gift of infallibility, He promise it to those He appointed as the leaders of the Church and through them to the people. The people have what is called “passive infallibilty” while the appointed teachers have “active infallibility” meaning as long as the people are in union with the teachings of the Teaching body of the Church, they too share in this infallibility. I noticed you corrected me on the passage of Lk:23;-33-34 The meaning was exactly the same as yours, I don’t see any problem but you do.
When Jesus speaks, being God-man, unless He makes a specific address to an individual, His words have universal spiritual meaning when He said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do.’ Ignorance is one of the effects of sin The world was in darkness, and Jesus the light came into the world to remove the darkness. Those that didn’t accept Him remained in darkness (ignorance) You interpretations are too narrow. I don’t need to quote each passage word for word, unless I have to make a specific point. I try to step back far enough to view the whole forest instead of one tree. I know that you are sincere and are trying your best as we all are, but we have to acknowledge we are fallible simply because we are human. I always have to keep this in mind, I need to be humble. In the Love of Truth
Of course you may not believe in this, but I do with all my heart and no one can tell me that I am wrong for believing in this:
"26 I write this to you about those who would deceive you; 27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him." 1 Jn 2: 26-27
The problem was not here with the meaning, was that you quoted wrong!!! You missed the **NOT **in your quote of what He said on the Cross.
I am saying no, I do not believe you are right. In this case precisely he is talking to some individuals: the Roman soldiers.
And then you changed passage and now you are talking about Him been the light of the world. Different issue, that “they do not know what they do” referring absolutely to the ones crucifying him, the Romans. To these ones He did not accused them to have an evil spirit or the Devil to be their father, like He did to the religious authorities. He just asked God to forgive them for they did not know the Law of the Jews and the Scriptures and neither that He was sent by God to this world to fulfill the expectation of the Jews for the coming of the anointed one, that is why they were ignorant and did not know what they were doing.
It is ok, just do not make mistakes in the quote.
You have to forgive an old man, who has trouble seeing. I can look at my mistakes and still not see them as I should. I repent.but that won’t stop me from making mistakes, so I count on people to understand the context to which I refer. Jesus’ mission was to save humanity from the works of Satan. We are all in spiritual bondage. It wasn’t the Romans or the Jews that Jesus came to rescue us.from they were instruments of Satan, and he worked through their weaknesses. Even through St.Paul and his self-righteousness (he thought he was right, but wasn’t) it took Jesus to enlighten him. I don’t think that anybody understood His real mission. He wanted to “die” because it was the Father’s will, for love of us, that He chose to. Even though He spoke the words “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” He spoke the truth for all of humanity, and this was inclusive of the Romans. It is a universal truth that one of humanity’s affliction is" ignorance" another is “concupiscence” and another is pride. That’s why He showed the example of humility. He was like us in everything, but sin Humanity didn’t receive the Holy Spirit of Holiness and Truth, and Power until Jesus was glorified. Every one was at a disadvantage due to these afflictions. That’s why I stated that "I believe they didn’t have full knowledge of the seriousness of what they said about Jesus having a devil. In a real sense., everybody was in bondage to Satan (except Mary, His mother) the Pharasees spoke in jealousy, not with accurate intelligence, they couldn’t they still had “concupiscence” which is doing things not compatible with reason, because our leaning toward sensuality, or feeling. They were envious, they were jealous, they were ignorant, these were some of the things Jesus came to redeem us from. Jesus came to redeem, not to condemn and that included the Romans and the Jews. With God all things are possible.
Dogmatic Constitution of Divine Revelation, para. 10, I do not think I compromised on what the Council set forth.
You say “and if so”, I do not see the necessity that you imply here, you could re-word your means, for reason does follow an end.
“for” would usually mean ‘concerning the reasons’ (and in this instance) of the end times.
To polarize the end times with the rest of the ‘ages’ would segment the truth. Because then it would have to be asserted that his Revelation did not speak in the his time.
What rests on the notion those two witness? You could not of possibly mean what you said. I beg my own pardon, from you. I surely could post likewise. Truly, he is the Son of God, and if we were not to punish ourselves for our sins, he would allow our sins to punish us. Therefore, pray that I do wise penance. For I am a fool, and it would only be by prayer that I could obtain the humility to desire you to be holier then me, provide it I be as holy as I should.
The Church does not have any clear teaching or any document teaching about the contents of the Book or Revelation.
And by the way the letters to the churches in Revelation ch 2 to 4, is what was then, for the ones of his times. If you would like to know more in detail about this please go to my website clicking here
And if so, in that context I meant:
Go and ask your priest if he believes that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is a prophecy that was written for the end times. And if so (that means: if he believes that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is a prophecy that was written for the end times.) if he believes that Jesus will send two witnesses before the Great Tribulation starts?
This is what I wanted to say. Hope now is more clear, and sorry if you did not understand because of my English, have patience, is not my mother tongue.
But if you want to know more about the two witnesses, I just open a thread here:
In the love of His Revelation,:love:
OK Ynotzap, do not worry, we understand and will try to remember where are the passages that you refer to.
This will be truth **if you do not believe ** (because you put it in the present tense) that precisly from this Jesus come to save us, so that by keeping the Commandments of God, the evil spirits flee from us and we are able to love God and live righteous lives: NO MORE BONDAGE .
I think you have a ‘sweety wash’ of the understanding of Jesus. Do you think that He was going to say this of the Pharisees, whom He attacked very strongly in many speaches. Do you think that if He is the way you think, He is going to send two witnesses of Himself who will bring droughts and plagues and have power to kill whoever wants to harm them. No, sorry I do not believe you! :tsktsk:
As for the rest that you said, go and read all what Jesus told the Scribes and the Pharisees about many things, for example: that if they were blind they will not have a sin, but because they say they see their sin remains Jn 9:39-41. Or the main one: your father is the devil and you do his will, he is a murderer from the begining and there is no truth in him, he is the father of all lies. Jn 8:44
In the love of the truth,
Alright. And now, I am going to see if you responded to my question in a different thread. Many thanks!
ref: Matt 12; 12-32
Did the Pharisees know "that a kingdom divided against itself would fall, and that they were involved in such a situation. Jesus was teaching them of their errors (ignorance on their part.)
And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul by whom do your people drive them out? Therefore they will be your judge. Jesus knew that they did it by belief in God. Jesus again showed them the fallacy in their thinking, they contradicted themselves. (ignorance)
But if it is be by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons then the Kingdom of God has come upon you. Jesus again was 'enlightening" them and witnessing to the Holy Spirit within Him and what it means for them. (He was driving out their ignorance and replacing it with truth)
I say to you, every sin of blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Did they know they were sinning against the Holy Spirit, they didn’t even accept Jesus as the Son of God ( Again they showed an obstinent ignorance)
Jesus made it a specific point to let them know how serious a thing they did. (drove out their ignorance.)
If they thought that Jesus was God, would they attack Him, and say that He had a devil? Or even try to attack Him.( Were they that ignorant?)
For having the devil as their father, this not only applies to them but to all of us, Jesus said we are all sinners. We are all in need of redemption from the works of Satan and his power over us. Every child that is born is in need of a’’ Rebirth’ Also Jesus said "if you are not for Me you are against Me.
Could the Pharisees have had full knowledge, one of the conditions for mortal sin, a sin unto death? They did sin, Jesus acknowledged this but did they sin mortally?
The Pharisees were responsible for what they knew, but they just didn’t know enough. It took Jesus to “enlighten” them. And even so they resisted the “light” so they remained in “darkness” (ignorance!!)
Ignorance of the Truth is one of the effects of sin, we lost the Holy Spirit when Adam sinned, Jesus the New Adam came to give us the Holy Spirit again.
You see why I can’t agree with some of you interpretations. If I am wrong,countering what the Church teaches, then I submit to correction. Somehow I believe that I didn’t.
I don’t have one of those moving icons, so you have me at a disadvantage, I wouldn’t know which one I would use, and they don"t have any hearts!