CaptFun responds in RED
[quote="Chiefsinner, post:1, topic:323583"]
These are some verses used for not having deutronomical books ( apocrypha) < Really? There are actual scripture from elsewhere that somehow take issue with the Septuagint (version of OT used in Jesus' time until a certain Jewish (and NON-Christian Council left them a few books OUT of its canonizations)?
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. < Where did he*** end?*** This doesn't "prove" that references from the Septuagint books -- that were "left off the Canon" by the Jamnia Jewish Council (after Jesus the Messiah had come and was being followed by other Jews, the apostles) -- weren't cited by the time he finished. Hardly a solid proof. THIS is exhibit "A"? :shrug:
What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
< By THIS time the "have been" above was more readily applied to the faithful Jews who followed the Messiah (Jesus) ... rather than implying a sort of ongoing authority to the non-Christian Jewish Council that excluded the books in question.
Also by the time this was written, the Jewish nation and leaders had been militarily conquered and stripped of nationhood, temple, synagogue and priesthood. The priesthood of Judaism that remained was in the Church and the New Covenant, the Eucharist instituted by Jesus and the teachings of his deputized apostles and their deputized successors (Bishops, etc.)
2 peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. < Can people seriously be using Peter, who was persecuted by the Sanhedrin in the beginning of the Book of Acts and told NOT to preach in the name of Jesus -- to justify a Council of THAT group later ... in opposition to the teachings and Canonizations of the Church? Peter's See as the Bishop of Rome is continued in the Papacy which in the time of St. Jerome and a Christian Council's establishment of the Canons (OT and NT) included the "disputed books"
How do you counter them I know the fact they say the jews had the knowledge but jews persecuted Jesus and rejected his authority. What else can I use?
That Council of Jamnia (sometime between 70-90 AD) may well have been run by the Sadducees from the look of things. And their exclusions of some books, like Maccabees which alluded to an afterlife and resurrection (teachings of the Christian leaders) may have been more for THAT reason than for the sometime stated reason that certain Septuagint books were not
written in Hebrew.
Sadducees disputed with Jesus over the Resurrection. The Pharisee party believed in things like angels (prominent in Tobit) for instance.
The book of Sirach includes many statements that sounded like the teachings of Jesus as well. But made a century or two prior to His earthly ministry.
An online search turned up the similarities of these OT "Dueterocanonical books" scriptures with certain of the New Testament. I quote the scriptures for comparison below.
Matt. 6:19-20 - **Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows **Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matthew 6:19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and decay destroy, and thieves break in and steal.
20 But store up treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor decay destroys, nor thieves break in and steal.
21 For where your treasure is, there also will your heart be.
Sirach 29:11 Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold.
Some others for Sirach being referenced in Matthew and Mark:
**Matt. 7:16,20 - **Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows **Sirach 27:6 - **the fruit discloses the cultivation.
*Mark 4:5,16-17 - **Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows **Sirach 40:15. *
Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from *1 Macc. 1:54 **and **2 Macc. 8:17. *
Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matthew 24:15 - "When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains,
1 Maccabees 2:27 Then Mattathias went through the city shouting, "Let everyone who is zealous for the law and who stands by the covenant follow after me!" 28 Thereupon he fled to the mountains with his sons, leaving behind in the city all their possessions.
**The main thing is though: WHY did the "reformers" use as their "authority" for the Old Testament scriptures a group that did NOT accept Jesus as the Messiah, though He had come, and by THAT time had: 1) Established HIS Church and given IT authority ... even unto - writing scripture (the New Testament) interpreting scripture (as Phillip is seen doing in Acts for the Ethiopian official he later baptizes) and much more.
Today even many "non-Catholic" versions of the Bible now include the books in question - even if in a separate section and called the Apocrypha instead of Duetero-Canonical books. Why include them at all if they are not scripture?**