I have started this thread so I can understand why people can not understand why mormons believe in more of God’s word than other mainstream Christians. And why others can not accept that there is more of God’s word. We are asked why we believe in these books. I ask how do you know that what you believe in is real or more correct than what I have. History is fine, but victors always write the histroy.
The problem you have with that often misused quote ‘Victors always write history’ is that often there are witnesses to an event who did not participate directly in the events in any way. Usually serious historians and critics whether religious or secular come to an understanding of what actually occurred and even maybe ‘correct’ misconceptions taught as history. e.g. Terra Nullis in Australia (the idea that stood and was taught for a hundred years this continent was uninhabited has been quashed). We now acknowledge that the Aboriginals inhabited this land and the English were invaders and stole their land.
With Mormon history there is not one serious historian or christian theologian in the world who will support this false history that was created by Mormonism regarding 3 Heavens, polytheistic Gods, Kolob etc. The reason being that there is no verifiable or trustworthy evidence written or oral which corroborates it other than the ramblings of a delusional charlatan and false prophet named Joseph Smith.
Whereas with the Bible we have secular and religious historians and theologians and eyewitnesses and authors throughout history who corroborate and have verified that this is a reliable historical document. Now the secular experts may disagree with their religious counterparts on what the Bible is but they do not deny it’s authenticity as a historical document.
Catholics don’t believe that the Bible is the Word of God. We believe Jesus is the Word of God made Flesh and cannot be limited to books. The Bible/Sacred Scriptures is beneficial to our spiritual life but we also have Sacred Traditions which were passed down from Christ to his Apostles and documented throughout the ages.
One reason would be
discovered in 1844 in rural Egypt is the oldest bible circa 300 ad has all the catholic books in the bible
Discovered in 1873 in Jerusalem is from before the fall of Jerusalem which is 70ad probably 50-60ad
Describes proper teaching on baptism, Eucharist and so on
Dead sea scrolls discovered 1940’s
Other proofs that require faith are
Visitations of Mary such as guatalupe, lordes, and Fatima
If you read it it is painfully obvious. Just my opinion…
For a couple reasons.
Why we don’t add more books: First, we believe in a Trinitarian God who created all things which exist (which I believe is slightly different than the Mormon idea), and we believe that Jesus is God, and is the Word of God.
That is, Jesus is the perfect Word of the Father, and so He has nothing else to say. Public revelation ended with Christ, because Christ is Truth, and once you have Truth itself there can be nothing else to gain. (Our understanding can deepen, of course. We can learn things we did not know based on what was told us, but this is not new revelation - simply what happens as we process what was given to us. But we have been given Everything.)
This is more or less a paraphrase of a CCC passage which I am trying to remember and having a hard time tracking down, I will reference if I find it though, as I’m sure it says it better than I can.
As to why we accept the books we have (addressing the point you made, there is more): it’s fine to say that victors write history, but we tend to believe that when it comes to safeguarding the truth He wishes us to know, God makes sure the victors (in this sense) are who He wishes them to be. We only have the history we have, and we believe in a God who could make sure that it turned out to be the way He wishes it to. So if God had revealed Himself to us, and if He desired that revelation to stay with us after He made it (which, given that He went to trouble to make it, I think is a reasonable assumption), then He would make sure such happened.
You could of course take the question a step further back and ask why we believe that Jesus had anything to do with God whatsoever, bringing up the possibility that Jesus was just a man who started an early movement that went viral for some reason. That is, you could ask why we think the victors are writing about something God did and hence that God would have an interest in preserving their integrity, rather than just people perpetuating something close to mythology. And there would be answers, but I think that would be to veer from the original subject a bit.
Your thinking is incorrect…
[size=]Why people can not understand why mormons believe in more of God’s word than other mainstream Christians…/[/size]SIZE]
What is God’s word?
How does anyone know what God’s word is?
How does someone that believes that there is something to believe in that is more, be sure that what they believe in is God’s word and how do you convince someone that what you believe is true?
Why Others cannot accept that there is more of God’s word…
What is accepted as God’s word?
and then go back to the questions stated previously…
I ask how do you know that what you believe in is real or more correct than what I have
First you must ask why you believe what it is you believe…beliefs come from filtering and information from memory coupled with imagination…
When you were presented with something that you did not believe and now believe…you looked at it and graded it against what you recall, what you know and filtered it against past experience and knowledge and then imagined it was true or not…
Only you can tell anyone why it is you believe what you believe…beliefs are hard to understand and hard to change…unless you want to change…then there are aids to do that…
Do you want to change, understand?..this can be done and is like a walk in the park…
do you want to argue and try to prove what you believe is true and have others accept it?..if this is what you wish to do…you will have an uphill battle…this I know…
At least part of what I was trying to reference earlier:
I. CHRIST — THE UNIQUE WORD OF SACRED SCRIPTURE
101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: “Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men.”
102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:
You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.
103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God’s Word and Christ’s Body.
104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”. “In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them.”
That revelation is closed follows from 102 (and is, I think mentioned explicitly somewhere else that I still haven’t found in this way), as if God has expressed Himself completely and perfectly in Jesus, then there is simply no need for more.
Edit: found it:
God has said everything in his Word
65 "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son."26 Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2:
In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty. 27
There will be no further Revelation
66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.
Simply put, it appears hat he same spirit of the air who spoke to Muhammad also spoke to Joseph Smith*. Scripture that the LDS accepts advises all to test the spirits, to see if they are of God. There is zero evidence that either Muhammad or Joseph Smith tested the spirit(s) who spoke to them. Both men heard words that fundamentally altered the revealed and settled nature of God. Additionally, the spirit(s) also convinced both Muhammad and Joseph Smith that the scriptures were tainted, or the Church that wrote and canonized the scriptures had failed. This makes Christ a liar. Well do we know who the liar and father of lies is. He has often spoken to man through the ages, and those who do not test his lies go on to found false religions.
The real Jesus Christ, Son of the eternal God, founded a Church and gave it all authority, promising that the gates of hell would not prevail over it. That Church has spoken. The case is closed.
- there are many rather eerie similarities between Islam and Mormonism, giving evidence of a common spirit source.
For me, I believe the Bible is God’s Word because it contains all of the wisdom of the world in this book.
If God was to speak to us in writing then it fits that it would contain wisdom - but God’s wisdom is infinite and it has been my experience that no other book comes even remotely close to matching the wisdom the Bible contains.
God is infinite.
The Bible (God’s word) is also infinite in that all scholars (past, present and future) can mine the richness of its teachings our whole life and still not mine everything it has to offer.
The Bible (in your manner of speaking “history”) was written by persecuted Christians - not what I would categorise as victors.
Right and wrong are written on the tablets of a man’s heart. Ones belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God can be genuinely known in much the same way. Does it really matter so much that I call myself one name and you call yourself another. Accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior should be sufficient for you, should it not. I sometimes feel that as kind as we Christians frequently are, we, at times lose sight of the prize. Jesus Christ is Lord…what else really matters! Humbly I say to you we are all vain creatures but we must trust our Heavenly Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit to lead our hearts in these matters.
So, the OP asks how do you know the Bible is the word of God?
You say Jesus Christ is the Son of God?
You say accepting Jesus as personal Savior is sufficient?
You say Jesus Christ is Lord.
You state that there is Father, Christ and Holy Spirit?
How do you know this to be true?
Because the Apostles who wrote, handed them down to their successors…and attested to it as the words of Jesus…and the writings started to read during the Mass…which were later compiled in one volume, called the Bible…it is based on history and tradition…carefully preserved by bishops and their successors in the CC.
History is fine, but victors always write the histroy
Ah…that famous line…but in this case, the intent was for the truth to be carried…not one’s view of history…but to fulfill the building of the Church…as Christ said to Peter in Matt 16…for the CC is founded and based on truth…of Christ.
Fatboy, for myself, Moroni’s challenge failed. As a young Mormon, I found this to be part of the evidence (not the only evidence) that Mormonism was not truth, or to be more exact, belief in the God of Mormonism was irrational.
All of Mormonism rises or falls on the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith. When either of those are revealed as false, the whole house of cards falls.
You have been taught to distrust the Bible, as is evident by your opening statement. Distrust the Bible, trust the Book of Mormon. You have it backwards.
The Catholic view of scripture is that it is the Word of God. (I disagree with those who say it is not.) But God did not sit in heaven at a desk and write the books of the Bible, bind them together and drop them from the sky.
God works in and through us. He is present in history, most importantly and profoundly, God entered History, when he became Man and dwelt among us.
You deny the truth of the Bible because you don’t trust that the Holy Spirit works in and through the fallibilities of humans. But you trust innovations that have no foundation in Salvation history. I find this odd, and sad.
Faith is informed by reason. God, being the author of our existence, created us as rational beings. Therefore, faith and reason are not at odds. When they are, such as occurs in numerous ways and places in Mormonism, reason says faith is irrational.
The Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, especially the Book of Abraham, are two examples of where faith and reason cannot be reconciled. It requires a level of mental gymnastics that is not present in Catholicism.
There aren’t these issues of faith and reason, with the Bible. For Mormons, I’d say you do see issues, but this is because of how you interpret and use the Bible, which again is an innovation that developed outside of Christ’s Church.
All that being said, the center of Christianity is Christ, not a book. Salvation history is rooted in Judaic tradition, which prophecies and prefigures both Christ and His Church.
The message of Jesus Christ is the message of prophesy fulfilled.
So I can look at Jesus Christ, as testified to us in the NT. I can then read of Christian believers throughout history, and see the continued fulfillment of prophecy, in them.
I believe first, in Jesus Christ. He is the center of my belief and faith. It therefore follows that I believe He established a Church, and gave to it the gift of the Holy Spirit. From Christ’s Church emerged what we call the NT, which is tied to the OT because of Salvation history…the work of God in His saving mission of all humanity.
Catholics are not sola scriptura. We also do not believe revelation is a singular source: the Bible. Revelation is sourced from God, and given to us via scripture, Christ’s Church and personal guidance for our own lives.
Even a Mormon cannot view the Book of Mormon as revealing anything new. Much of it is plagiarized directly, word for word, from the KJV anyway. Throw in a few innovations, some very markedly coming from 19th century American Protestantism, and there you have a new book.
There isn’t anything that would cause us to believe this book is anything but the innovations of a 19th century human, but plenty to cause us to reject it. First and foremost, the claim on which it rests that Christ failed, and left us as orphans for 1800 years.
There isn’t much credibility there to the Catholic mind.
Actually, there is no II Maccabees in Codex Sinaiticus–only I Maccabees and IV Maccabees.
Very powerful, and quite correct!!
I find it very odd that Moroni, in the 19th century, spoke to Joseph Smith in decidedly 17th century English.
I guess my point has been missed. Or maybe I did not state this well enough to get my point across. As I reread it, it is ackward. What I want to know and some of you have eluded to it is that how do you know what you believe is right? I know some of you have said that the physical evidences strengthen your faith in it. But where does you faith in God or the bible is real and not just a big hoax comes from. And I do not want to hear any more jibberish about what feel Joseph Smith is or was or that the Book of Mormon is false. I already know this. You can get your point across without taking a shot at what I believe is true.
Christians can not understand because:
- Christ said it was “finished”. Public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.
- The Apostles went and preached the “good news” all through out the world. Their testimony, including the Church Fathers, is consistent & convincing on who Jesus Christ was as well as his revelation to mankind.
- Christ established a Catholic Church on earth, and said he would be with it to the end of time. In doing so, he would not let it fail.
- Joseph Smith can not be trusted…he was a documented fraud in his business dealings.
- He either continued his ways in establishing his church (for reasons of sex, power, wealth etc) OR was misled by a evil spirit (in this case, the bible warns us not to listen to another Gospel even if given by an Angel…Moroni)
- The writings of these added books are simply false. Genetics show that the American Indians came from Asia…there was no great battle in Cumorah NY, no chariots, no temples…a book translated from “ancient Egyptian” writing was actually a funeral text …etc etc.
- Even LDS historians have left the church because of the contradictory evidence.
- There’s no evidence of a Great Apostasy…there was no reason to reform the Church.
I ask how do you know that what you believe in is real or more correct than what I have.
- As I said above.
- The OT is fulfilled in the NT and the Church that Christ established is clear, through oral and written tradition as to what the Truth is.
- This Church has been infallible in it’s teachings on faith and morals despite leaders who have been sinners and despite many heretics along the way who tried to bring it down (think Arians). The fact that the Catholic Church is still here in great numbers (1.2B) gives me added confidence that it is “correct”.
History is fine, but victors always write the histroy.
- “Victor”?? Strange word. There was a never a battle so there could never have been a victor. LDS history did not start until 1830+…the Catholic Church had been around for 1800 years at that point. Christ said his Church would be the lampstand, the light on the hill for all to see.
14 You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.
15 Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.
The LDS church was put under a bushel basket by Joseph Smith, having led his followers across the country, over a mountain range to a place where no one would see them and where they would not see anyone else. This is not the Lamp that Christ speaks of … but it is what I would do if I were the devil and wanted to mislead the flock. It’s also what wolves do when attacking prey…they will isolate the prey from the pack and then attack.
The Alaskan Tundra Wolf : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaskan_Tundra_Wolf
(Fatboy…sorry if I took a shot or two…I read your last post after I submitted mine)