How do you reconcile


#1

Christian atrocities with your faith?..Protestant and Catholic…are you aware of the history of these two denominations?..The very foundation…and bedrock of the church is built on millions upon millions of horrible deaths…how do you reconcile this? I’d like to know.


#2

[quote=Raynd]and bedrock of the church is built on millions upon millions of horrible deaths…how do you reconcile this? I’d like to know.
[/quote]

I see the BEDROCK of the church being built on one horrible death. Now murdererous Christians throughout history proves that we are not perfect, however, the lack of perfection of it’s members does not put a blemish on the Bride of Christ.


#3

Dear Raynd:

The grace which I find within the Holy Catholic Church in particular more than makes up for the crimes of individuals!

Moreover, I don’t think I would be so quick to condemn religion for the violence that is sometimes associated with it. Hitler’s atheistic Germany and Stalin’s atheistic Russia weren’t exactly brimming with peace and love!!!

In faith,
Fiat


#4

BUT…the very fact that you are catholic now…may rest on this very history…the church grew and grew through a merciless domination of “heretics”… there are some estimates that that Ferdinands armies reduces the population of Germany from 18million to 4 million people …all through the total singleminded purposes of wiping out the protestants…The catholic armies through the 1500 and 1600’s rank right up there…NO- they topple any holocaust of modern times… These weren’t just a few catholics…this was THE church. Pope Pius sent armies to France…he was canonized a saint! …


#5

[quote=Raynd]BUT…the very fact that you are catholic now…may rest on this very history…the church grew and grew through a merciless domination of “heretics”… there are some estimates that that Ferdinands armies reduces the population of Germany from 18million to 4 million people …all through the total singleminded purposes of wiping out the protestants…The catholic armies through the 1500 and 1600’s rank right up there…NO- they topple any holocaust of modern times… These weren’t just a few catholics…this was THE church. Pope Pius sent armies to France…he was canonized a saint! …
[/quote]

Garbage! This is historically inaccurate. There weren’t even that many souls IN those countries at that time. Try reading a historicalluy unbiased source before making an allegation. Most likely you got hold od SDA materials and they are full of such trash.


#6

Well by the same token, shouldn’t you loath yourself for being an American? (or a citizen of whatever country you belong to?) After all, secular organizations kill, too.

Fiat


#7

Ryand,
You seem to make the assumption that there are only Catholics or that the Church is only existant where it is safe for it to exist. Early Church history proves that this is untrue, furthermore there are Catholics in places where there are armies of a different sort (China, Vietnam)


#8

[quote=Fiat]Well by the same token, shouldn’t you loath yourself for being an American? (or a citizen of whatever country you belong to?) After all, secular organizations kill, too.

Fiat
[/quote]

Yeah Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just SOOOO neccesary…
The distinction of being the only country in the world to use nuclear weapons … a civilian population at that. So don’t even go there either.


#9

Hi Churchmilitant:

You said:

[font=Georgia][size=3]Yeah Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just SOOOO neccesary…
The distinction of being the only country in the world to use nuclear weapons … a civilian population at that. So don’t even go there either

[/size][/font]
I hope you know I was not trying to be unsupportive of my country with this statement, rather I was commenting on the hypocrisy of people who hold me in disdain as a Catholic because of the actions of others while at the same time seeing nothing wrong with belonging to institutions themselves that behave in the very same ways for which they offer criticism.

Your brother,
Fiat


#10

there are some estimates that that Ferdinands armies reduces the population of Germany from 18million to 4 million people …all through the total singleminded purposes of wiping out the protestants…The catholic armies through the 1500 and 1600’s rank right up there

I assume you are speaking of Ferdinand the Catholic king of Aragon, husband of Isabella the Catholic. He died in 1516 after driving the Moors (muslims) from what is now Spain & uniting the country. He played politics for years with France & England. He died long before there were any “protestants” in Germany or otherwise. Maybe a few dissenters. Which hardly equals the decimation of 14 million people.
You may want to read a history of Europe during the 16th century. There were atrocities on both sides. The protestants were as equally guilty, at least. And, after all, this must be seen in a historical context.
None of history has anything to do with why I, myself, am a Catholic. I am a convert FROM protestantism.


#11

[quote=Raynd]Christian atrocities with your faith?..Protestant and Catholic…are you aware of the history of these two denominations?..The very foundation…and bedrock of the church is built on millions upon millions of horrible deaths…how do you reconcile this? I’d like to know.
[/quote]

How do atheists reconcile themselves with Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin?


#12

Wow, so many fallacies in so short a post. Lets see from what I remember this post could fall into Complex Question, Post Hoc, Non Sequitor, false dilemma, and red herring fallacies.

Let me answer by posing this question, should we throw out democracy since democratic countries have caused wars and killed millions. In fact Democracy and freedom was founded on bloodshed:

French Revolution: 250,000 killed during the Reign of Terror.

**American War of Independence: **108,800 killed

**American Civil War: **373,458 killed

**Vietnam: **5 million killed

**Gulf War: **100,000

**Iraq war: **5000 and counting

How do we reconcile this with our freedoms? We don’t, the arguement is non-sequitor, tendentious and irrelevant.


#13

Well said argued Grolsch, but most people cannot tell a logical argument from a truly farcical one. For those who wish to hate the Church, special pleading is usually enough.


#14

[quote=catsrus]I assume you are speaking of Ferdinand the Catholic king of Aragon, husband of Isabella the Catholic. He died in 1516 after driving the Moors (muslims) from what is now Spain & uniting the country. He played politics for years with France & England. He died long before there were any “protestants” in Germany or otherwise. Maybe a few dissenters. Which hardly equals the decimation of 14 million people.
You may want to read a history of Europe during the 16th century. There were atrocities on both sides. The protestants were as equally guilty, at least. And, after all, this must be seen in a historical context.
None of history has anything to do with why I, myself, am a Catholic. I am a convert FROM protestantism.
[/quote]

I don’t think the reference is to Ferdinand the Catholic of Spain, but to the Habsburg Emperor Ferdinand II of Austria (reigned 1619-37).

The Thirty Years War (1618-48) was immensely destructive, to material and to populations. Worse still, a persecution of the Protestants of Bohemia coinicided with it, after the Battle of the White Mountain in 1620; the Emperor was a very determined Catholic, to say the least.

IMHO, one enormous evil was the foul way in which the Jews were treated for century after century. I think this is one of the weightiest objections to Christianity.

Talking about the crimes of states, or of other Churches, is IMO rather beside the point: the fact is, that the Church makes great claims for herself - so it makes no sense to find the Church shedding gallons and oceans of human blood or committing other atrocities. Other Churches are, by Catholic standards, not as “legit” as she is:so one might almost expect them to do have all sorts of faults, so, those faults can hardly be made grounds of objection to them. I think the evil committed by the CC demands to be treated withiout frivolity, without being trivialised, without being taken lightly - it has had an immense effect on how people judge of the CC, and on whether she appears to do the works of Christ or not. ##


#15

[quote=Théodred]How do atheists reconcile themselves with Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin?
[/quote]

Perhaps it could be said that they were tainted by having come from a Christian culture, and that if they had not, but had been brought up as atheists, they would have killed far fewer people, or even none.


#16

Thank you for having an open mind in trying to understand my question. There is no point in people “getting defensive” because of my question…It’s an honest question. Theodred has the biggest chip I have ever seen on a shoulder…anyway…whether or not you think there is some “global conspiracy” against the CC…you can believe that there were indeed atrocities…you can believe that millions have died…and you can believe that your modern church is a direct result of all of this. So I just want to know how catholics reconcile this. It was one of the main reasons that I never came to religion (admittedly at a time in my life when I yet didn’t understand the power and happiness of a search for the truth, and also lacking at times the strength to simply say “I don’t know”)…What is it about they way that you think…that allows you to sidestep all of the foundational problems?

As far as comparing a country to a belief system? That doesn’t even beg disussion…

and yes I was talking about the thirty year war.


#17

The Catholic Church was built upon the horrible deaths of martyrs. All of the twelve apostles except St. John died a martyr’s death. There have been martyr’s since St. Stephen, the first martyr. People are martyred for the Catholic Faith to this day.

Jesus said that the Church would have both good people and bad people in it. This has been true from the beginning of the Church to this day.

My responsiblity is to make sure I am one of the good people and not one of the bad people.


#18

[quote=Raynd]…you can believe that there were indeed atrocities…you can believe that millions have died…and you can believe that your modern church is a direct result of all of this. So I just want to know how catholics reconcile this.
[/quote]

Why should I believe that, because you say so? Argumentum Ad Nauseam. You are chalk full of fallacies today. Prove to us how the Catholic Church is a direct result of atrocities. You mention Ferdinand, was he motivated by faith or by politics? Was he more concerned about what people believed or if they obeyed his rule? What about the Swedes? French protestants? They all wanted a piece of the pie too. What were their motivations?

** Circumstantial- guilt by association**: this fallacy surfaces in political circles often- usually the opposition argument is characterized as liberal' orsocialistic’, etc.

It was one of the main reasons that I never came to religion (admittedly at a time in my life when I yet didn’t understand the power and happiness of a search for the truth, and also lacking at times the strength to simply say “I don’t know”)…What is it about they way that you think…that allows you to sidestep all of the foundational problems?

False Dilemma-

In this fallacy, the distraction from the truth lies in the wording of the argument. The argument is worded so that we are only given two alternative actions, one of which is usually so outrageous as to be unacceptable. The other action or option of belief is usually the one being argued for. This argument is deceptive because if carefully constructed, it has a valid form- (Disjunctive Syllogism), but it ignores the possibility that there may be more than two alternative actions.

As far as comparing a country to a belief system? That doesn’t even beg disussion…

I wasn’t comparing the country but its 'belief" system, ie. Democracy and Freedom. I was trying to illustrate your logical fallacies. Take the Counterfeit fallacy or “Affirming the Consquent” :

America was founded on Democracy and Freedom. America killed millions of people. This means democracy and freedom kill millions of people. How then can you support democracy and freedom?

You’ve set up your argument just as fallaciously:

Ferdinand was Catholic. Ferdinand killed many people in wars. Therefore Catholicism kills many people.

Then you present your false dilemma as if it were an either/or proposition. I’m Catholic but I don’t support killing innocent people. Ferdinand obviously felt he was justified in dealing out corporal punishment for breaking the law.


#19

[quote=Raynd]Christian atrocities with your faith?..Protestant and Catholic…are you aware of the history of these two denominations?..The very foundation…and bedrock of the church is built on millions upon millions of horrible deaths…how do you reconcile this? I’d like to know.
[/quote]

Among other things, I usually give the following link:

catholicleague.org/research/inquisition.html

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

*Forgive us Lord,
when in longing to defend what is right,
when in trying to support the truth
we do what is hurtful and mean,
forgetting to take out
whatever logs are in our own eyes
to take the speck out of the eye of our fellows,
forgetting to work all things in love.

Lord, forgive us
when hurt by our fellow man,
we complain, and strike back.

Heal us Lord,
and give us strength to offer you
our hurts and sadnesses,
to offer you the pain of being corrected,
rather rightly or not.

If it is our job to correct,
help us learn to do it in ways that heal,
not hurt,

And whatever we do in your name,
may we always do it for your glory,
without hate, anger,
or the taint of self-righteousness.

May we learn to be quiet
in our longing and respect for you,
rather than speak words
that would drive any away from you,
or harm those who love you.

And when we speak,
may it always be guided by the Holy Spirit.

Amen.*


#20

[quote=Grolsch]Why should I believe that, because you say so? Argumentum Ad Nauseam. You are chalk full of fallacies today. Prove to us how the Catholic Church is a direct result of atrocities. You mention Ferdinand, was he motivated by faith or by politics? Was he more concerned about what people believed or if they obeyed his rule? What about the Swedes? French protestants? They all wanted a piece of the pie too. What were their motivations?
[/quote]

You are definitely a crusader… possessing what appears to be a superficial intellect… I guess after I build my time machine, I can prove it to you (chuckle)…if you want to deny the catholic past…that is your prerogative…but the Pope doesn’t issue apologies because it’s a good way to pass the time…it was an admission of guilt.
Oh …and If you look at my original post “brainiac” you will see that I did include protestants…but since this is a CC forum…I will address you specifically.

**

Circumstantial- guilt by association

: this fallacy surfaces in political circles often- usually the opposition argument is characterized as liberal' orsocialistic’, etc.**
You are making up statements to argue against? Neat…I can do that to. Anyway…I don’t rememeber stating in my original post that anyone was guilty…The question was as to how you reconcile your faith with the history of the church…"brainiac."
You really haven’t answered the question (because there were no atrocities)…which is laughable.

I wasn’t comparing the country but its 'belief" system, ie. Democracy and Freedom. I was trying to illustrate your logical fallacies. Take the Counterfeit fallacy or “Affirming the Consquent” :

You are a pathological right wing reactionary…plain and simple. America isn’t even a democracy “brainiac” it’s at best a Republic…and freedom isn’t a belief system you fool…it’s a the soverign right of all creatures upon this earth.

America was founded on Democracy and Freedom. America killed millions of people. This means democracy and freedom kill millions of people. How then can you support democracy and freedom?

…talk about fallacy!!! So you assume I support America…you even assume that I indeed am posting from America?..wow! Hey “brainiac”…America is a geographical location okay…If I was born in America then I obviously couldn’t have chosen it…YOU CHOSE CATHOLICISM…and whether or not the country was “actually” founded on freedom is severely debatable. You are just not doing very well…I commend your vocabulary though…to bad that isn’t enough.

Ferdinand was Catholic. Ferdinand killed many people in wars. Therefore Catholicism kills many people.

Obviously you are under the delusion that “just a few bad seeds” were responsible for all of this…wrong. It was wholesale…supported by decrees…and Pope…the Pope himself sent armies to France…It was the churche’s stance…not just a few people…Oh and incidentally there is an incredible difference between Heugenots defending themselves…or killing certain catholics…versus the church backed idea of SENDING WHOLE ARMIES TO FRANCE…to burn and massacre people…
You are obviously a good wordsmith…but you are also so blinded by your faith, and closeminded that you fall deep into the ignorant mass of sewage that encompasses and soils western religion…you are a true crusader.


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