How does a dead saint do you any good?


#1

I understand that the catholics don’t pray to the saints. they ask the saints to pray with them. I am still having difficulty with this because aren’t the saints dead. Only a few people went to heaven while they were still alive. aren’t the rest waiting to rise up at the end of times along with the living?


#2

Their bodies and souls may be separated (physically dead), but their souls are very much alive.


#3

but isn’t the end of times when judgement day comes. how can souls be in heaven now if they haven’t been judged yet?


#4

The Saints are praying for us as seen by John in the book of Revelation.

Rev. 5:8

When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.


#5

For understanding why Catholics pray to Mary + the saints, read this article. It’s one of the best ones you can find:

Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine


#6

What part of Church teaching do you not understand?

We believe that after death there are two judgments.

First is the particular judgment. Here every individual will be judged based on how they lived.

The second is the final judgment, where God will judge the world, and all those who are still living. (I also think that all God’s children throughout the ages will get to see how they uniquely fit into God’s plan.)

Most souls do not go to heaven directly after death. Most of those who are saved (who die in God’s friendship) go to purgatory first. Their ultimate destination is heaven.

There are only two final destinations: heaven and hell.

Individuals who die in a very, very high degree of sanctity through the grace of God, may enter heaven immediately. We believe that one has to be perfectly holy and have a perfect love of God before entering into heaven.

Most people do not die in this high state of grace. All the saved who are not in heaven already will be raised on the last day.


#7

Their souls have gone to heaven. At the end of time they will be reunited with their glorified bodies, and there will be the end of all things, and a new heaven and a new earth will be created.

So yes, their bodies have died, but they are still very much present to us.

Go HERE and listen to the podcast in Season One about the Communion of Saints. This may help you understand this more clearly. It’s only about 40 minutes long.

~Liza


#8

These witnesses can see the race.

Ever been to a race? The witnesses (generally known as fans!) do not just sit there stoically, now do they? Indeed not! They intercede (sometimes called “cheering”…) and loudly for their respective people.

How much more would the saints in heaven intercede (Oh look! Evidence for the intercession of Saints!) for those of us still running our races, especially since that race has such eternal consequences?

You might also get into this MP3 Bible study on the Communion of Saints. Here’s the basic notes.

Have you noticed Hebrews 12:1? And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Now I have never seen the “witnesses” (Fans) of any race that just sat stoically by, have you? How much more so would the saints in heaven intercede for us in our own races knowing of the eternal consequences of it?
Now if the New Testament says that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses as we run our race for the Lord, just what do we think those folks are doing? Ever been to race? No one sits there stoically, do they?

To me this passage makes it pretty clear that the faithful departed are not only aware of what we do (This of course by the will and power of God!), but they are actively interceding for us the way that race fans do.

I find it even harder to grasp how any soul that has won through so far as heaven or purgatory (knowing the struggles and spiritual warfare that all the “church militant” endures) would not be busily interceding for those of us running our race that has such eternal consequences. That just doesn’t sound like any of the faithful believers that I have ever heard of.

These witnesses can see the race.

Ever been to a race? The witnesses (generally known as fans!) do not just sit there stoically, now do they? Indeed not! They intercede (sometimes called “cheering”…) and loudly for their respective people.

How much more would the saints in heaven intercede (Oh look! Evidence for the intercession of Saints!) for those of us still running our races, especially since that race has such eternal consequences?

As to the charge of necromancy:
It’s not necromancy, you need to understand the Communion of Saints.

If our dead brothers and sisters are not aware of us then why does Hebrews 12:1 say that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses in our race for the Kingdomof God?

Romans 8:38: For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39: nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

To non-Catholics who might disagree:
So you never ask anyone else to pray for you?

When you “got saved”, did anyone else pray along with and for you? By your thinking that was wrong since all you needed was to pray for yourself.

Yet what does the Word of God say? I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: (1st Timothy 2:1)

The saints pray in Heaven:
Revelation 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Revelation 8:3 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.


#9

I would say to you that they are MUCH more alive than you and me.


#10

The Bible indicates that between death and the General Judgment at the end of time the souls of the dead, while awaiting the resurrection of their bodies, are conscious, experiencing either comfort or fiery torment, and capable of communicating with and praying for others. Luke 16:19-31; 1 Samuel 28:3-19; Matthew 17:1-8; 2 Maccabees 15:11-16.


#11

There’s no such thing as a dead saint - they all have eternal life in Christ. How can someone in heaven be dead?


#12

Read the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was suffering the torments of hell, while Lazarus was in the comfort of Abraham’s bosom. Both men were conscious and even able to communicate across the vast, uncrossable chasm.

Clearly, this took place before the final judgment because the rich man refers to his brothers who are still alive on earth, so clearly, the end of the world had not yet come.

You will also read in Revelation that the souls of the martyrs were under the altar, crying out for justice, but they were told to wait a bit longer. So clearly the world had not yet ended, and the books had not yet been opened. But they were in heaven, alive and conscious.


#13

bapcath, I just saw in your profile you are in RCIA. Blessed be God for that and may he be with you through the journey! Yes, the folks here have it right, you just have a bit of a mistaken premise. Quite simply, the saints aren’t dead. Their souls are in heaven waiting until the end of time when they receive their new perfected bodies at the general judgement. We have a great big family up there loving us and supporting us!

LT

edit: perhaps you already got confirmed this spring. If so, congratulations!


#14

:amen: :blessyou:


#15

Jesus told the Good Thief that he would be in Paradise on that day, which evidences a judgement immediately after death.


#16

It does indeed! :thumbsup:


#17

Even before death, apparently.


#18

Do you believe that God is the God of the living? If you do, how are the Saints dead? God is the God of the living, not of the dead. Those souls who are in heaven are more alive then we are here on earth. How? For they are in the presence of God the father and God the Son. How much more alive would you be if you got to be with them?


#19

“I believe in the Communion of Saints.” These words of the Apostle’s Creed have a triumphant as well as a consoling ring. They remind us especially of that “great cloud of witnesses over our head” (Hebrews 13:1) who, our fellows in the flesh, have gloriously won the victory of the spirit and encourage us, by their example, to the fight proposed to us. They tell us something more: that Saints in bliss are ever praying for their brethren on earth with an efficacy and persistence proportionate to their preceeding merit.

Nor is their intercession vague and indeterminate. Catholic theology teaches that, in the Blessed Vision of God, they see all things of earth pertaining to their state; so that, for example, the Popes in heaven are especially aware of what effects the Church, a national Apostle of his people’s needs, parents of their children’s estate, and Saints, in general, of the invocation of their clients.

Mary, then, who, by Her motherhood of God enjoys a kind of infinite dignity, and by Her unique co-operation in the Redemption with the Son of God made man has merit beyond compare, must, more than all the Saints, be irresistible before the Throne of Grace. As Mother of mankind, there can be no soul outside the circle of Her maternal solicitude.

Belief in the Communion of Saints finds its grandest realization in communion with Her who is Queen of all the Saints.


#20

How do you explain this? I am confused

“The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.” “There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.” Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. “The dead praise not the Lord.” **Psalm 115:17. **


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