How does Christ dying save us?

#21

[quote=NiceFundamental]Hey adnauseum, I am not trying to split hairs here, but the above quote would illustrate she is asking for herself as well.
[/quote]

Good point.

Say, putting aside for a moment your quibble with Catholics, I wonder if you are troubled by the fact that the woman’s friend is attending a Lutheran seminary and yet describes herself as a comfortable gnostic or atheist?

Kind of ironic that you would see her post as a case in point of Catholic blindness and that you would miss - dare I say - the mote in your own sect?

#22

[quote=adnauseum]Good point.

Say, putting aside for a moment your quibble with Catholics, I wonder if you are troubled by the fact that the woman’s friend is attending a Lutheran seminary and yet describes herself as a comfortable gnostic or atheist?

Kind of ironic that you would see her post as a case in point of Catholic blindness and that you would miss - dare I say - the mote in your own sect?
[/quote]

Do the Lutherans count as Fundamentalist? I wouldn’t think so, but I don’t know what all their labels for themselves.

Gotta admit, this guy’s been better than some we’ve seen in here. Glory Be To God! :irish1:

Hey NF,
Just for clarification, can ya tell us just what specific kinda non-Catholic church you attend and maybe give a link to their statement of faith or whatever so we can all be kinda on the same page? I notice that you didn’t specify it in your profile, and there’s a place for it. It helps keep people from making assumptions that mess up the communications.
Pax tecum,

#23

[quote=NiceFundamental]Yes, I am aware, that is why I used that scripture verse. Again, probably why Catholics are attacked. People can say it 3 times at mass but not understand what they are saying. Why is Jesus a “Lamb” and how did he take away the sins of the world?
[/quote]

Please don’t think I’m jumping on you (It’s hard to convey tones in typing). Yes, Jesus is the Passover Lamb, but that doesn’t explain why He had to die.

What I heard the other day is that on the Day of Atonement, a lamb is slaughtered, for the Sins of all of Israel, by the High Priest. Jesus can be this lamb, but it’s not the day of Atonement, so I’m not sure if the connection is accurate.

I hope in my earlier posts that I’ve shown a good explanation, but I find that most people, Catholics and non-Catholics, do not make the connection between Israel and the Dueteronomic Covenant (and it’s curses). To me, it was the first time I felt that I understand the true need for His death.

Take Care and Welcome!

God Bless!

Notworthy

#24

[quote=Church Militant]BTW, I think knowlege may be overrated according to St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, the 13th chapter 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. and 1st Cor 8:1 “…we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up; but charity edifieth”.
[/quote]

Amen Brother.

#25

[quote=Church Militant]Perhaps people shouldn’t attack?
[/quote]

I agree with you totally.

#26

[quote=Church Militant]but the repeated use of the word “attack/attacked” in your posts sounds like the cocking of a gun.
[/quote]

No gun cocking here. Just my observation from reviewing some forums/threads as well as interacting with some Protestants. My point being, even when I go into “non catholic” book stores/music stores etc.Catholicism might be in the “occult” section, or in the more politically correct section of “world religions”. I have heard Protestants even getting upset at the fact that their store has “Catholicism” in it. I have not observed that from the other point of view is all. So from my vantagepoint, Catholics do get attacked and questioned as to even if they’re “Christian”.

My original post was just trying to point out a possible reason for it. Another might be that it is a pretty cleaver plan derived by Satan to further destroy continuity amongst Christians.

#27

[quote=Church Militant]If you are here to discuss with us, then let’s rock and roll,
[/quote]

I am sorry, I do not rock and roll.

Hahaha, just kidding. (showing my genuineness/willingness to converse)

:slight_smile:

#28

[quote=Church Militant]Just for clarification, can ya tell us just what specific kinda non-Catholic church you attend and maybe give a link to their statement of faith or whatever so we can all be kinda on the same page? I notice that you didn’t specify it in your profile, and there’s a place for it. It helps keep people from making assumptions that mess up the communications.
[/quote]

I will try and get it up. I do not agree with it totally, however, I attend because it is the best bible preaching sermons I have been fortunate enough to hear.

#29

[quote=NotWorthy]Please don’t think I’m jumping on you (It’s hard to convey tones in typing). Yes, Jesus is the Passover Lamb, but that doesn’t explain why
[/quote]

Yes, good point.

[quote=NotWorthy]What I heard the other day is that on the Day of Atonement, a lamb is slaughtered, for the Sins of all of Israel, by the High Priest. Jesus can be this lamb, but it’s not the day of Atonement, so I’m not sure if the connection is accurate.

I hope in my earlier posts that I’ve shown a good explanation, but I find that most people, Catholics and non-Catholics, do not make the connection between Israel and the Dueteronomic Covenant (and it’s curses). To me, it was the first time I felt that I understand the true need for His death.
[/quote]

Explained well from my vantage point.

[quote=NotWorthy]Take Care and Welcome!

God Bless!

Notworthy
[/quote]

Thank you, and the same to you.

#30

[quote=Church Militant] Just for clarification, can ya tell us just what specific kinda non-Catholic church you attend and maybe give a link to their statement of faith or whatever so we can all be kinda on the same page? I notice that you didn’t specify it in your profile, and there’s a place for it. It helps keep people from making assumptions that mess up the communications.
Pax tecum,
[/quote]

Constitution
Having been led by the Holy Spirit of God to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour, and on the profession of our faith having been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, we do now in the presence of God, the angels, and this assembly most joyfully enter into covenant with one another as one body in Christ. We engage therefore, by the aid of the Holy Spirit to walk together in Christian love; to strive for
the advancement of this church in knowledge, holiness, and comfort; to promote its prosperity and spirituality; to sustain its worship, ordinances, discipline, and doctrines; to give it sacred
pre-eminence over all institutions of human origin; to contribute cheerfully and regularly to the support of the ministry, the expenses of the church, the relief of the poor, and the spread of the gospel throughout the world. We also engage to maintain family and personal devotions; to religiously educate our children; to seek the salvation of our kindred and acquaintances; to walk circumspectly in the world; to be just in our dealings, faithful in our engagements, and exemplary in our deportment; to avoid all
tattling, backbiting, and excessive anger; to abstain from the sale and use of intoxicating drinks as a beverage; to practice separation from worldly activities; to abstain from anything that would cause a brother to stumble, and to be zealous in our efforts to advance the kingdom of our Savior.

We further engage to watch over one another in brotherly love; to remember each other in prayer; to aid each other in sickness and distress; to cultivate Christian sympathy in feeling, and courtesy
in speech; to be slow to take offense, but always ready for reconciliation and mindful of the rule of our Savior to secure it without delay. We moreover engage that when we remove from this place we will as soon as possible unite with some other fundamental church of like faith and order, where we can carry out the spirit of this covenant and the principles of God’s Word.

#31

Here’s what I think:

-To show us how much He loved us.

-To show us what love looks like.

-To show us the end result of sin.

-To show us that eternal life does await us.

That is all to say, Jesus didn’t have to die, in the sense that God could have done nothing else. Rather, God intended from the beginning to bring us back to Himself in this manner. Then He gave us all the prophecies and laws to prepare us for this saving act. He provided Himself the Lamb, after preparing us to receive and understand the meaning of the Lamb.

God loves us beyond measure. Love God. Love one another. Be not afraid. These are the messages of Christ’s Passion and Ressurection.

#32

Statement of Faith
Section 1 - The Scriptures
We believe that the Bible is the inerrant, inspired Word of God; that the very words were spoken by God to holy men of old; that divine inspiration extends equally and fully to all parts of the
Scriptures in the original manuscripts. Further, God has promised to preserve His pure Word free from loss or corruption throughout all generations. The Scriptures are the only complete and final
revelation of the Word of God to man and therefore are our only rule for faith and practice. We accept the King James Bible as the only reliable English translation. II Timothy 3:16; II Peter
1:20,21; Mark 12:36; Matthew 5:18; 24:35; Proverbs 30:5, 6; Psalm 119:89,160; Revelation 22:18,
19; Isaiah 40:8; Psalm 12:6, 7; I Peter 1:23-25. [Amended March 19, 2003]

Section 2 - The true God
We believe that there is one, and only one, living and true God: an infinite, intelligent, perfect spirit and personal being; the creator, preserver, and supreme ruler of the universe; inexpressibly
glorious in holiness and all other perfections and worthy of all possible honor, confidence and love; that in the unity of the Godhead there are three (3) persons: God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, equal in every divine perfection and executing distinct but harmonious offices in the great work of redemption. John 4:24; Genesis 1:1; Jeremiah 10:10; Matthew 28:19; John 10:30; Exodus 15:11; Mark 12:30; Ephesians 2:18

Section 3 - The Person of Christ
We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ; that he is the very God by Whom and for Whom all things were created; that He was virgin born; that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and is
God manifest in the flesh; that He lived a perfect, sinless life and gave Himself as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of all men; and that He rose bodily from the grave. John 1:1-3,14; Matthew
1:18-25; II Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 9:14,27; John 1:29; I Corinthians 15:4-8

Section 4 - The Holy Spirit
We believe that the Holy Spirit is a divine person and not just an influence. We believe that He is equal with God the Father and God the Son; that He was active in creation; that He convicts of
sin, judgment, and righteousness; that He seals, endues, guides, teaches, witnesses, sanctifies, and helps the believer; and that He calls individuals into Christian service and empowers and directs them in that service. We reject the modern charismatic movement with its unscriptural emphasis on speaking in tongues and other sign gifts. John 14:16,17; John 16:7-14; Genesis 1:2; Matthew 28:19; Luke 24:49; Ephesians 1:13; Romans 8:14-16, 26; II Thessalonians 2:13; Acts 13:2-4; I Corinthians 12-14

Section 5 – Satan
We believe that Satan was once a holy angel who enjoyed heavenly honors, but through wicked pride fell and drew after him a whole host of heavenly angels; that he is the enemy of God and
every Christian; that he is the author of all false religions and present day apostasy and that he shall be punished for ever and ever with his fallen angels in the lake of fire. Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17; I Peter 5:8; Ephesians 6:11; Revelation 12:9; Matthew 4:1-3; II Corinthians 11:13-15; Revelation 20:10

Section 6 – Creation
We believe that the Genesis account of creation is literal and is the accurate historical record; that man, the universe, and all that is in it were created by God and not some process of evolution; that the six days of creation were literal twenty-four hour days. Genesis 1:1; Genesis 1:7,11,14,20,24,26,27; Exodus 20:11; Colossians 1:16,17; Hebrews 11:3

#33

Section 7 – Man
We believe that man was created in innocence under the law of his Maker but by voluntary transgression fell from his sinless and happy state, in consequence of which all mankind are now
sinners not by constraint, but by choice; being by nature utterly void of that holiness required by the law of God, positively inclined to evil and therefore under just condemnation to eternal ruin
without defense or excuse. Genesis 1:27-31; Genesis 3:6-24; Isaiah 53:6; Ezekiel 18:19,20; Jeremiah 17:9; Isaiah 64:6; Romans 1:20; Romans 5:12,19,20

Section 8 – Salvation
We believe that God in His love and mercy has provided eternal salvation through the perfect redemptive and substitutionary atonement of our Lord Jesus who bore all the sins of the world in
His own body. The conditions of salvation are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ; that it is totally of grace through faith, apart from any human works or effort, plus or
minus nothing; that it is freely given to all who will receive it. Man cannot obtain salvation apart from the convicting and renewing work of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Romans 5:8; I Peter
2:24; I John 2:2; Acts 20:21; Ephesians 2:8,9; John 6:37,44; John 3:5; Romans 10:17

Section 9 - Blessings of Salvation
We believe that all who are in Christ are justified, forgiven, imputed with Christ’s righteousness, regenerated, given eternal life, adopted into the family of God, redeemed, given spiritual gift(s),
sanctified, sealed, and eternally secure in Him. Therefore, all true believers will endure to the end. Romans 5:1-9; Hebrews 10:17; I John 1:9; Romans 4:5-7; Titus 3:5; John 3:3-5; John 10:28;
Ephesians 1:5,13; Colossians 1:14; I Corinthians 12:4-11; Hebrews 10:10; John 5:24; I John 5:4

Section 10 - The Local Church
We believe that the local New Testament church is a visible assembly of baptized believers, associated by common faith and fellowship in the Gospel; observing the ordinance of baptism by
immersion and the Lord’s supper, governed by His Word, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word; that its only scriptural officers are pastors and deacons whose qualifications, claims, and duties are defined in the epistles 1 Timothy and Titus; that the mission of the church is found in the Great Commission; that each local church has the absolute right of self-government with Christ as the Head, free from the interference of any hierarchy of any individuals, churches, or organizations. Matthew 18:17; Acts 2:41-47; 1 Corinthians 11:2; 1
Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:5-9; Matthew 28:19,20; Ephesians 5:23, 24; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Acts 6:3-5; Acts 15:22

Section 11- Baptism and the Lord’s Supper
We believe that Christian baptism is the immersion in water of a believer in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; that it is commanded by our Lord and is to be practiced by
the church; that it pictures the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and also the believer’s death to sin and his resurrection to a new life. We believe that the communion of the Lord’s supper
is a privilege and responsibility intended only for those who are baptized believers in Christ; that the sacred use of the bread and fruit of the vine are symbolic only, commemorating together the
death of Christ. It is to be preceded by solemn self- examination. Acts 8:36-39; Acts 10:48; Matthew 28:19-20; Romans 6:3-6; Colossians 2:12; Acts 2:41,42; 1 Corinthians 11: 23-31

Section 12- Civil Government
We believe that civil government is of divine appointment for the interest and good order of human society; that civil authorities are to be prayed for, honored, and obeyed, except only in the things
opposed to God’s Word; and that the Church and state should be separate, the state owing the church protection and full freedom. Romans 13:1-7; Matthew 22:21; Acts 5:29; Daniel 3:12-18; 1
Timothy 2:1,2

Section 13 - The Righteous and Wicked
We believe in the bodily resurrection of the righteous ( saved ) resulting in their everlasting blessedness with Christ and in the bodily resurrection of the wicked (unsaved) resulting in their
everlasting , conscious punishment in the lake of fire. 1 Corinthians 15:12-54; John 5:25,26; John
14:2,3; Revelation 20:5,6,10-15; Luke 16:24

Section 14 - Things To Come
We believe in the personal , imminent , pre-tribulational , and pre- millennial coming of our Lord Jesus Christ for His redeemed ones (the Rapture), immediately followed by the tribulation. Christ
subsequently returns to earth with His saints to establish His millennial kingdom. Acts 1:6,7,11; I Thessalonians 4:16,17; Matthew 24:15-31; Revelation 19:11-15; Revelation 20:1-3; I
Thessalonians 1:10

#34

God is an infinite being with no beginning and no end. We are finite with a beginning and end. When a finite being offends an infinite being it becomes an infinite offense, which the finite creature cannot mend. Therefore in the eternal dwellings of God, Jesus, the Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity, being an infinite being, out of infinite love for His creature man, opted to pay the pennalty which Gods own justice demanded of sin which was death. While the death for man was to be not only death of the body but also, as was the case for the apostate angels, a death of the soul, which is hell. In that Christ is infinite, His death paid the price for that eternal death of the soul for those who abide in His word, but it did not erase the need for the death of the body. Again Jesus died in the flesh and thus glorified the flesh through His resurection, and regaining what had been lost by Adam. We also must die in the flesh, since we must follow Christ in all things, including HIs works, to attain to that which He will give to us at the final judgement.

I suggest you get a copy of “Love of Eternal Wisdom” by Louis de Monfort, which you can get for about $5. It does a beautiful job explaining this, as I am totally incapable of as you can see :slight_smile: .

#35

[quote=NiceFundamental]I do not agree with it totally
[/quote]

I do not agree with 1) the King James Version being the only reliable English translation and 2) the clause, “to practice separation from worldly activities”, as meaning all or every one just because they are “worldly” but I examine carefully any activity - perhaps not as I should.

There you go.

:thumbsup:

#36

[quote=NiceFundamental]I do not agree with 1) the King James Version being the only reliable English translation and 2) the clause, “to practice separation from worldly activities”, as meaning all or every one just because they are “worldly” but I examine carefully any activity - perhaps not as I should.

There you go.

:thumbsup:
[/quote]

Well, Thanks for the info. I’m glad ya filled in those blanks for us. It’ll make dialogue a lot easier now. I look forward to talkin’ to ya on other threads.
Pax tecum, (Matthew 10:12)

#37

[quote=Church Militant]Well, Thanks for the info. I’m glad ya filled in those blanks for us. It’ll make dialogue a lot easier now. I look forward to talkin’ to ya on other threads.
[/quote]

I as well.

“My Lord and My God”

Blessings.

stipendia enim peccati mors gratia autem Dei vita aeterna in
Christo Iesu Domino nostro

#38

[quote=NiceFundamental]Yes, I am aware, that is why I used that scripture verse. Again, probably why Catholics are attacked. People can say it 3 times at mass but not understand what they are saying.
** Why is Jesus a “Lamb” and
how did he take away the sins of the world?**
[/quote]

Hi NF, AMEN,
Jesus is The Lamb because He came to OFFER HIS LIFE as a ransom for many.

He takes away the sins of the world…
Isa. 53:
6… "We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way;
But the Lord laid upon him the guilt of us all."
12… “because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked;
And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.”

(gusano & others like him)
…who are Baptized into his death and offer their bodies as a living sacrifice WITH HIM at the Altar, (Rom. 6: 3 / 12: 1)
Who eat his flesh and drink his blood for the forgiveness of sins.
(Matt. 26: 26-28) because they believe.

I am not just saying this of Catholics only, just trying to provide insight into why that question is always asked.

I am not judgemental, hence why I am on this Forum.

I certainly appreciate your genuine effort NF, and I believe God appreciates you too. :slight_smile:

gusano

#39

You are a variety, then, of sola-scriptura Protestant.

[quote=NiceFundamental]God manifest in the flesh; that He lived a perfect, sinless life and gave Himself as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of all men; and that He rose bodily from the grave.
[/quote]

Can’t help but notice that this doesn’t explain “why” Jesus had to die—and isn’t the lack of that answer what leads you to think the original poster isn’t a Christian?

[quote=NiceFundamental]We reject the modern charismatic movement with its unscriptural emphasis on speaking in tongues and other sign gifts.
[/quote]

Some aspects of the charismatic movement are problematic from a Catholic point of view (though there are legitimate Catholic Charismatic movements), and I would agree with you that over-emphasis on tongues, etc. is not healthy, though of course these things are Scriptural. Perhaps it would be wise for your particular sect to make distinctions here between charismatic groups that have gone off the tracks and those that are legitimate? Otherwise it seems you may be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[quote=NiceFundamental]We believe that the Genesis account of creation is literal and is the accurate historical record; that man, the universe, and all that is in it were created by God and not some process of evolution; that the six days of creation were literal twenty-four hour days.
[/quote]

OK…Catholics are free to believe that if they wish, though I don’t personally. But thank you for providing us with a statement of beliefs. What is the name of your sect?

#40

[quote=ricren]I am Catholic and have no problem accepting that it does. I’ve entered into a friendly relationship with an ex-Mennonite woman who has no interest in being Christian, but does have a relationship with God that she describes as being most comfortably similar to the spiritual athiests and gnostics that she knows. I honestly don’t completely understand her relationship with God.

I know that she had a painful break with her community because she realized that she could not profess the belief that was required to be an accepted member of her community and family. She has a lot of resentment over that. My understanding is that the main breaking point for her was not being able to find an acceptable answer to the question, “What exactly does a dead body do for us to save us?”

I can give a vague answer about covenents and attonement for sins, which she politely rejects. I posed the question to my dear husband who answered something along the lines of something needing to die and only God coming down and dying himself would satisfy the requirement. Trying to think in my new friend’s mindset I asked, “Why? Why does something need to die?” I was greeted with a blank smile.

Again, I don’t question that it’s true, but can someone walk me through what the explaination to this question is? I’m searching both for my friend and myself. This is probably a question I should have an answer to. Remember just drawing back to scripture probably won’t satisfy my friend because she doesn’t accept Christianity. If it helps she’s actually pursuing a theology degree at a Lutheran seminary right now so she’s probably well-versed in theology (though I’m not and I’m the conduit, so don’t get too deep on me, OK?).

God Bless you and thanks for any help you can provide.
[/quote]

It was not absolutely necessary that God become man and die to save us; it was only necessary in that God planned that way for it to be done. Christ was made man and died and rose to merit grace for mankind. By becoming man Christ united the human nature and the divine nature. By dying on the cross He made it possible that the entire human race could become united with the divine nature by grace. What Christ was by nature we become by grace. All grace flows from God to man through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. This grace brings a man into union with God.

Many people like to argue that it satisfies Gods justice but I don’t like that arguement. They argue that God demands punishment for our sins. What God actually demands is conformity with the Truth. This is accomplished through the sacrifice of Christ. The grace that Christ merited cleanses us and causes the perfection of our souls.

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