How does Christ dying save us?


#41

Man has sinned. Man is in sin. Man needs to atone for his sins. Big stop. Man can’t adequately atone for his sins. First off, because how could he ever repay the debt that he owes God? Second, how could a man make perfect penance to atone for that sin?

God is perfect. God can make perfect penance, but God, in his own nature cannot suffer and die.

Because man offends God, man must atone. However, only God can do this. So, the Second Person of the Trinity had to take on a human form (the Incarnation) in order to do it. Jesus, as man, can atone for our sins, and Jesus as God, can do it perfectly.


That’s a short summary of the way that C.S. Lewis explains it in Mere Christianity. It may not be quite the Catholic position (I don’t know), but perhaps it is a good place to start.

And perhaps Hebrews 9 would help:

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come to be, passing through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands, that is, not belonging to this creation, 12 he entered once for all into the sanctuary, **not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. **13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of a heifer’s ashes can sanctify those who are defiled so that their flesh is cleansed, 14 **how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God. ****15 **For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. *16 **Now where there is a will, the death of the testator must be established. **17 **For a will takes effect only at death; it has no force while the testator is alive. **18 *Thus not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 When every commandment had been proclaimed by Moses to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves (and goats), together with water and crimson wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is ‘the blood of the covenant which God has enjoined upon you.’” 21 In the same way, he sprinkled also the tabernacle and all the vessels of worship with blood. **22 **According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23 Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these.

Remember that Jesus came to ‘fulfill the Law.’ Note that the sacrifice of other animals could not forgive sins:Hebrews 10

3 But in those sacrifices there is only a yearly remembrance of sins, 4 for it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats take away sins.

Christ’s blood could forgive sin. Hence, Christ fulfilled the Law by his blood and his sacrifice, which nothing else could do and which we all needed.


#42

[quote=jimmy]It was not absolutely necessary that God become man and die to save us; it was only necessary in that God planned that way for it to be done. Christ was made man and died and rose to merit grace for mankind. By becoming man Christ united the human nature and the divine nature. By dying on the cross He made it possible that the entire human race could become united with the divine nature by grace. What Christ was by nature we become by grace. All grace flows from God to man through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. This grace brings a man into union with God.

Many people like to argue that it satisfies Gods justice but I don’t like that arguement. They argue that God demands punishment for our sins. What God actually demands is conformity with the Truth. This is accomplished through the sacrifice of Christ. The grace that Christ merited cleanses us and causes the perfection of our souls.
[/quote]

To summarize an earlier post, Israel was still under the Deuteronomic Curses (See Deut. 28). The last curse was they had to die. Israel dying would not solve their problem. The only way to break a covenant is one of the members has to die (take a look at the marriage covenant, “til death do you part”). God, is demonstrating His Love for Israel by Jesus taking on the curses of Israel and dying, thus freeing them from the Deuteronomic Curses.

God Bless,

Notworthy


#43

[quote=NotWorthy]To summarize an earlier post, Israel was still under the Deuteronomic Curses (See Deut. 28). The last curse was they had to die. ** Israel dying** would not solve their problem. The only way to break a covenant is one of the members has to die (take a look at the marriage covenant, “til death do you part”). God, is demonstrating His Love for Israel by Jesus taking on the curses of Israel and dying, thus freeing them from the Deuteronomic Curses.

God Bless,

Notworthy
[/quote]

Hi Not worthy,
not to be picky but that still leaves** those of us** who are gentiles, and not Israelites…

how does Christ’s dying save us ?

gusano


#44

[quote=NotWorthy]To summarize an earlier post, Israel was still under the Deuteronomic Curses (See Deut. 28). The last curse was they had to die. Israel dying would not solve their problem. The only way to break a covenant is one of the members has to die (take a look at the marriage covenant, “til death do you part”). God, is demonstrating His Love for Israel by Jesus taking on the curses of Israel and dying, thus freeing them from the Deuteronomic Curses.

God Bless,

Notworthy
[/quote]

WOW! Notworthy,
I just read Deut. 28… The first part sounds very inviting if one obeys, but from verse 15 onward… wooo-we ! :frowning:

v: 45: **"All these curses will come upon tou , pursuing you and overwhelming you, until you are destroyed. because you would not harken to the voice of the Lord, your God, nor keep his commandments and statutes he gave you. **

v: 46 They will light on you and your descendants as a sign and a wonderfor all time.

v: 47 ** Since you would not serve the Lord, your God, with joy and gratitude for abundance of every kind, therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and utter poverty, you will serve the enemies whom the Lord will send against you.
He will put an iron yoke around your neck, until he destroys you."**

sssssss -sounds like God means buisiness !
Either obey Him or rot !

But then St. John says;
" Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal,
Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life,
but must endure the wrath of God."
Jn. 3: 36

Does that mean “believing” and “obeying” are one and the same ?

May your New Year fit in
some where between verses 1 and 14 of Deuteronomy 28:

gusano
:slight_smile:


#45

I will give it a shot.

In our Lord’s incarnation, He took on human flesh and united it to His Divinity making this combination of two natures: Human and Divine, joined as one under a single Person, the second Person of the Trinity, Jesus. In this incarnation, he incorporated every living soul past, present and future and in effect we became part of his Body and He became our Head. So in Christ we have become a special and unique living organism called the Church (the communion of the Saints describes this link we have with each other and the Lord) with Christ as our Head. When He incorporated all of us into Himself in this way at His incarnation, He also incorporated all our pains and all that we should suffer for our sins (including the eternal pains of hell) into Himself and thus suffered infinite pains for us. We are not capable of suffering infinite pains as we are finite beings and thus it would require us to suffer in hell for eternity and still never fill up the measure of the infinite debt we owe, but Christ being both Man and God could suffer (as man) and indeed suffer infinite pains for us without being required to spend eternity in hell since He can suffer infinite pains without the infinite time frame required by mere finite beings like us.

You can think of it as we suffer with Christ as much as we are capable (the temporal pains we are to suffer for our sins) of in participation with Christ but Christ suffered not just this (suffering it with us and in us) which He shared with us but also the infinite pains He does not share with us in this same way to make us feel them as we could not.

If my hand steals something and deserves to be slapped, my hand may be slapped but it is not my hand per se that feels this pain but myself as the Person to whom my hand is joined. In the same way, by incorporating us into Him, you can say our infinite pains are still inflicted on us but we no longer bear them alone but instead as a single Body in Christ and thus Christ can take on the task of suffering these infinite pains for us in our place as it were while He permits us to participate in these pains to His Body in the capacity we are able to as finite beings being members of His Body.

I hope this makes sense.

Larry


#46

[quote=gusano]Hi Not worthy,
not to be picky but that still leaves** those of us** who are gentiles, and not Israelites…

how does Christ’s dying save us ?

gusano
[/quote]

Hi Gusano!
Not to be picky but read my post #6 to find out about us Gentiles!:smiley:

God Bless!

Notworthy


#47

You’ve just hit the nail on the head! That one verse puts John 3:16 into full context. " For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life." If you believe in Jesus, you will lovingly obey Him. If you disobey Him, it proves you don’t believe in Him. John 3:36 only gives you two options.

[quote=gusano] May your New Year fit in
some where between verses 1 and 14 of Deuteronomy 28:

gusano
:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Ha! And the same to you, my friend!

Take Care!

Notworthy

P.S. Gusano, you certainly seem to be in a better mood than last week! Glad to see that!


#48

[quote=Larry Hunsaker]I will give it a shot.

In our Lord’s incarnation, He took on human flesh and united it to His Divinity making this combination of two natures: Human and Divine, joined as one under a single Person, the second Person of the Trinity, Jesus. ** In this incarnation,** he incorporated every living soul past, present and future and in effect we became part of his Body and He became our Head. **So in Christ we have become a special and unique living organism called the Church **
(the communion of the Saints describes this link we have with each other and the Lord) with Christ as our Head. When He incorporated all of us into Himself in this way at His incarnation, He also incorporated all our pains and all that we should suffer for our sins (including the eternal pains of hell) into Himself and thus suffered infinite pains for us. We are not capable of suffering infinite pains as we are finite beings and thus it would require us to suffer in hell for eternity and still never fill up the measure of the infinite debt we owe, but Christ being both Man and God could suffer (as man) and indeed suffer infinite pains for us without being required to spend eternity in hell since He can suffer infinite pains without the infinite time frame required by mere finite beings like us.

You can think of it as we suffer with Christ as much as we are capable (the temporal pains we are to suffer for our sins) of in participation with Christ but Christ suffered not just this (suffering it with us and in us) which He shared with us but also the infinite pains He does not share with us in this same way to make us feel them as we could not.

If my hand steals something and deserves to be slapped, my hand may be slapped but it is not my hand per se that feels this pain but myself as the Person to whom my hand is joined. In the same way, by incorporating us into Him, you can say our infinite pains are still inflicted on us but we no longer bear them alone but instead as a single Body in Christ and thus Christ can take on the task of suffering these infinite pains for us in our place as it were while He permits us to participate in these pains to His Body in the capacity we are able to as finite beings being members of His Body.

I hope this makes sense.

Larry
[/quote]

Hi Larry,…Is that Catholic ?
I am so glad Jesus was born.
Is it all about pain and suffering? …Is it possible to lose focus on Jesus and become submerged in pain and suffering ?
If he did it all in the Incarnation, if he incorporated us all into his body, then his terrible beatings and his death would have been un-necessary, wouldn’t they ?
and our repentance, conversion and Baptism would also be un-necessary wouldn’t they ?
Doesn’t it make more sense as He says;" I have come to OFFER MY LIFE as a RANSOM for many."
“I have come” is the same as “The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.”

I would think that if because we love him in return, by accepting Baptism into his death, he will transform us sinners in the Journey into becoming like himself, or like Adam was before he fumbled it.

By the way,
Do you think we left out the most wonderful Gift of all ?..The Gift of The Holy Spirit, which he said would not come
unless he departed through HisNew Exodus, which he set in place for us to follow ;
THE EXODUS of the New Covenant is HIS DEATH, RESURRECTION, and ASCENSION.
When we have in place; Repentance, Obedience of the Gospel, and Baptism, He deposits The Gift of God in us to lead us on the Journey THROUGH THE EXODUS.

I don’t know if what I said makes any sense either,
so welcome to purgatory or informatory,
or whatever this is ! :slight_smile:

Maybe this is the “rifle range”…so , Take another shot.
Put another clip in, lock and load…then commence firing ! ( USMC language ) :slight_smile:

God Bless

gusano


#49

[quote=NotWorthy]You’ve just hit the nail on the head! That one verse puts John 3:16 into full context. " For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life." If you believe in Jesus, you will lovingly obey Him. If you disobey Him, it proves you don’t believe in Him. John 3:36 only gives you two options.

Ha! And the same to you, my friend!

Take Care!

Notworthy

P.S. Gusano, you certainly seem to be in a better mood than last week! Glad to see that!
[/quote]

Thanks Not worthy,
Yup, you are right,
and here I thought i was being in a good mood, :smiley: but averything I said offended somebody.

God Bless,
This year will be better.

gusano


#50

[quote=NotWorthy]Hi Gusano!
Not to be picky but read my post #6 to find out about us Gentiles!:smiley:

God Bless!

Notworthy
[/quote]

I went back and read your post # 6

WOW !
I am so glad to “rub elbows” with Catholics who have come from …wherever you came from.
Pentecost, I suppose.

I am e-mailing a copy to my Evangelical brother who’s been trying since 1998 to siphon me out of the Catholic Church.

:smiley:
Thanks

gusano


#51

[quote=ricren]I am Catholic and have no problem accepting that it does.

"What exactly does a dead body do for us to save us?"

God Bless you and thanks for any help you can provide.
[/quote]

I just remembered these glimpses into Christ’s death;

Christ’s dead body was not useless during the 37 or so hours it lay in the tomb.
(he was working under cover) :slight_smile:

He accomplished in his death what the “scapegoat” led into the wilderness could not do.
(Lev. 16: 20-22 )

“In his own body he brought our sins to the cross”. (to his death) (1 Peter 2:24

“But the Lord laid upon him the guilt of us all.”
“and was counted among the wicked; and shall take away the sins of many and win pardon for their sins.” ( Isa. 53: 6, 12 )

“When a strong man fully armed guards his courtyard, his possessions go undisturbed.
But when someone stronger than he comes and overpowers him, such a one carries off his arms on which he was relying
and divides the spoils.”
(Luke 11: 21, 22 )
In his death Jesus (someone stronger than he) overpowers Satan (“a strongman fully armed” ) and carries off his armament.

“Christ deliverd us from the power of the law’s curse by himself becoming a curse FOR US…” (Gal. 3: 13 )

“Jesus… by his death, robs the devil, the prince of death of his power, and free those who through fear of death
had been slaves their whole life long.”
( Heb. 2: 14, 15 )

He opens up THE NEW EXODUS through his death.
“Now it is finished”… John 19: 30

We are invited to be “Baptized into his death…” ( Rom. 6: 3 )

“Every time you eat this bread and drink this cup YOU PROCLAIM the death of the Lord until he comes.” ( 1 Cor. 11: 26 )

"Baptism (into his death ) **corresponds to Noah’s Ark exactly…" **

so… enjoy the ride !

God Bless,

gusano


#52

Pentecost!?!? Wow, that came out of left field! But no, I’m a cradle catholic who had been “asleep at the wheel” all my life, only to wake up a couple of years ago and realize where my “car” was headed:eek:!!!

Take Care!!!

Notworthy


#53

[quote=NotWorthy]Pentecost!?!? Wow, that came out of left field! But no, I’m a cradle catholic who had been “asleep at the wheel” all my life, only to wake up a couple of years ago and realize where my “car” was headed:eek:!!!

Take Care!!!

Notworthy
[/quote]

Thank you for that short but powerful testimony !
sounds close to home. I am a cradle Catholic too but I abandoned my “cradle” in my teens.
When I was 29 I discovered I was driving fast downhill in a “car” with no steering wheel and no brakes. and a foggy windshield :smiley:

God showed me my condition and there is where I began.

How I sensed you came from Pentecost is because; No one can say "Jesus is Lord. except in the Holy Spirit."
…and your writings have that Aroma.

Glad to be on board with you

gusano


closed #54

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