How does god have no creator?


#1

Why is it so simple to understand that god, a bieng so complex, intelligent, immense and powerful has always been.

Why can this same logic not apply to the universe?


#2

No reason why it can’t. I think that it’s because there are separate objects in the universe that people can see deteriorate and eventually their form be destroyed. There’s also some good scientific reasoning that the universe will eventually end by the loss of all its energy. There is some evidence to the contrary however. But it’s just that we really don’t know, and maybe can’t know because the furthest we can see back in time is the Big Bang.


#3

If God had a “Creator” then who was “His” Creator and who was His creator and so on and so on…it has to end somewhere with some “Being” who was above all the endall.


#4

In order for things to be contingent, something must exist which is not contingent. That non contingent thing is God.


#5

But why does that end all or non contingent have to be a creator? can’t that endall be the universe we live in? If it can be god why can’t it be the universe?

Thats what I’m trying to say, if something complex like god didn’t need a creator why does something complex like the universe need one?

Or maybe god has a god and thats where it ends…


#6

Interestingly, until Edwin Hubble demonstrated that the universe is expanding, the scientific consensus had long been that the universe was static, and thus that it was both infinite and eternal: that is, it had no beginning or end, and no edges, but had always been and would always be, and was limitless. (This was Einstein’s view, originally!) What became the theory of the Big Bang, as the beginning point in time and space of a time-and-space-limited universe, actually arose in germ with a Catholic priest (Georges Lemaitre), and was dismissed by many scientists of the time as a religious fancy and a pious imputation of Creationism.

Science has since changed its view, of course. Hubble’s demonstration of the uniform expansion of the universe led swiftly to the acceptance of the notion that the universe both had a beginning point and was limited in extent, facts further confirmed by the direct observation of the cosmic background radiation (an “echo” of the Big Bang), and so the idea of a moment of “creation” went from being dismissed as pious fantasy to a fundamental fact of science.

So science itself raises the questions: since there was a Big Bang, a beginning point in time and space, what caused it? How did it arise, and what happened or existed before the Big Bang? (Of course, science also rightly notes that it cannot answer these questions, because all the phenomena science can observe or measure are themselves confined to this time-and-space-limited universe: in other words, no information has or can “come through” to us from “before” the Big Bang, or from “outside” this universe. As Catholics, of course, we believe that such information has “come through” to us, in the form of Divine Revelation.)


#7

It seems to me that it is apparent that the universe did need a Creator because it is contingent on something besides itself – and not just for it’s origin. The more we find out about the universe, the more we can see that the processes that go on within it are highly dependent on factors outside those processes. If some processes or conditions that make the universe what it is ceased to work or exist, other processes or conditions could not, in turn, function or exist. Since the processes in this huge system is apparently so interdependent and not self-sustaining, that tells me that it’s design and origin must exist outside the system itself. And to me, God fits this bill.

If you haven’t already, may I suggest the book, “The Case For a Creator,” by Lee Strobel?


#8

A created “god” would not be a god at all.


#9

I have thought a lot about this.
Not that I have no faith, just human curiosity.
I often wonder just WHERE God got his power?
What must it feel like to have that much power?
Does He know how it all happened?
This does not really apply, since He is eternal and infinite, it’s not like He AQUIRED the power, it just always was.

Our limited human insight can’t conceive it, I guess.
My only hope is that when we meet Him, it will be clear to us.

Another thing I wonder about is “seeing Him face to face, seeing Him as He is”. That is a very powerful statement. How can something that great and powerful even CARE about us?

Here is another thought…think how lucky we are that a Being with that much power just happens to be a GOOD God…

May this un-comprehendable God grant me faith and mercy for even questioning Him.


#10

Your chief mistake is in thinking of God as “complex”. He is Simple; His Being is not composed of parts.

theopedia.com/Simplicity_of_God

“The simplicity of God means that God is a unified being He is one essence. God is not composed of a variety of substances. In this sense he is different from humans who are made up of matter and spirit. Jesus is not an exception to this truth. While he took a human body while here on earth he is still absolute spirit in his essence. The simplicity of God reminds us that God needs nothing else to exist neither did he comes about by a number of forces or substances joining together. This reassuring fact will encourage us to worship him as the unchanging God.”

For a fuller discussion of God’s simplicity and His other attributes which are one in His simplicity, see here:

newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm


#11

Short answer is that the universe can’t be the “non-contingent” because it changes. Anything that changes can’t be the source of being, because it’s not even fully “being” itself; it becomes something else with every change.

The true source must not change, and must be its own being/existence. Since the universe is never the same from one moment to the next, it can’t be said to fundamentally and eternally “be”.

Longer answer coming later.

Peace and God bless!


#12

If one can answer where God comes from, he can surely answer you the question how God has no creator.


#13

Or, as someone else has quipped: **If I understood God, I would be God. ** :wink:


#14

God is not complex. That is where you go astray.

The universe is composed of parts, and is ever-changing. God’s essence is absolutely simple, and God does not change.

Furthermore, I for one agree with St. Thomas Aquinas that it is quite possible logically that the universe has always existed. However, even in that case there would need to be an ultimate cause for the universe. This is not temporal language, since traditional Christian theology believes that God is atemporal.

Edwin


#15

Yes i know of the priest and his idea, but what you say is void as the churches official stance is that the universe was created in 6 days by certain steps not by a big bang and the steps that followed. But what you say about the big bang doesn’t rule out the possibility of a sin function universe, endless bangs, or something existing before the bang, outside out time space continuum.


#16

everyone seems to say god is not complex but how on earth do people know that? Becuase that is the churches idea of god? there is no real way to know how complex god it.

Okay so something that is simple can exist without an origin but something complex cannot exist without an origin?

Eargh i just wish god would answer my question because it seems to be the only one that can.

I’m okay with the idea that the universe needs a creator, but then what about the creator, how does something come from nothing. And then why can’t these same principles that apply to god apply to the universe?

The universe is composed of parts, and is ever-changing. God’s essence is absolutely simple, and God does not change.

And how can god be stagnant? He changed himself into the form of jesus, that is a change. He changes when he became the burning bush.


#17

How is it we know this creator was simple instead of complex?

Normally we observe that when things are created/constructed by some level of intelligence, the creator was more complex than what was created. This applies to beaver mounds, insect nests, autos, etc. This mode of thinking sets up an endless hierarchy of creators, and a not so small conundrum. One way to break this complexity hierarchy is to consider that the created object was not constructed by an intelligent agent/being, but by a simple process. Evolution is an example of non-intelligent process that creates complexity. Of course, this only makes sense if you think evolution is a well-supported idea.


#18

There’s something else we should keep in mind when discussing the origin or first cause question.

We may not have the capacity to truly understand time. Other (Lower?) animals have limitations on time knowledge. We are better, but still may be short.

If the big bang, time, and space are inseparable, then time is an attribute of the universe. Time is not something that came from, or was caused by, the universe. That implies there was no “before” the universe, and no universe cause since cause requires something to exist “before”. These questions indicated we don’t have a complete understanding of “time” and “cause”. We may someday, or we may be missing something essential to this knowledge.

Has the universe always existed in some form? If you think it has not always existed, then does that mean matter and energy can be created from nothing.


#19

Hi

I think by definition God who has not been created by anyone. We Ahmadi Muslims believe from Quran/Islam/Muhammad:
Quran
[112:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[112:2] Say 'He is Allah, the One!
[112:3] Allah the Independent and Besought of all.
[112:4] 'He begets not, nor, is He begotten,
[112:5] And there is none like unto Him.

Unquote

If one does not believe in God, then by concept such a person should accept Universe, from your example, as God; that one won’t do being illogical.

Thanks


#20

If God had any origin, in anything (such as a Creator), God would not be God. God is wholly unoriginated, uncreated, without any source. If God had a source, God would be a mere god, like one of the gods of the pre-Christian religions. He is utterly unlike them because He is in no sense whatever from the created order - that is one of the crucial differences between the theism of the Israelites & Jews, & the theism of their neighbours: the God of Israel has no origin, unlike His competitors.

It is because the God of Israel is not part of creation, but is its Unique Source and, also crucially, its Lord, that there can be salvation: God can save those who are within the created order, who are from it, precisely because He is not from it & exceeds all created things. It is His complete freedom from all creation that makes a Good News of salvation possible at all.

Again, the gods of polytheism are many (as well as made), so they have no providential care for all creatures, & do not make covenants. It is no co-incidence that polytheistic religions have a low view of man - Israel’s neighbours looked on men as slaves to the gods; Israel’s God constantly refers to Israel by using imagery from family relationships.

So it is of the utmost importance that He is One, Unique, Unoriginated, & the Creator & Lord of all creation. :slight_smile:


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