How does one loose their salvation

I have a friend who is protestant and believes in Faith Alone “Sola Fide” and Once Dunked Saved or at least want you acclaim Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you are saved from that point on.

He asked me the following: How does one loose salvation?

I wasn’t quite sure how to answer this question. Simply sinning? And of course he is going to want a biblical reference for this.

[quote=Sooner4Christ]I have a friend who is protestant and believes in Faith Alone “Sola Fide” and Once Dunked Saved or at least want you acclaim Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you are saved from that point on.

He asked me the following: How does one loose salvation?

I wasn’t quite sure how to answer this question. Simply sinning? And of course he is going to want a biblical reference for this.
[/quote]

By choosing to turn and walk away from their relationship with Christ by sinning.

[quote=Br. Rich SFO]By choosing to turn and walk away from their relationship with Christ by sinning.
[/quote]

With all do respect I now this, but how do you explain this to one who wants scriptural reference and at the same token believes all sin is equal in its severity?

How does one end a marriage to a perfectly faithful spouse? By walking away.

a man in God’s grace rejects God’s free gift of salvific grace (eph 2:8-9) by committing a mortal sin, you silly catholic!

i would cite a few verses: luke 12:47-48, and 1 john 5:16-17.

1 John 5:16-17

16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death [non-mortal], he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death [non-mortal]. There is a sin that leads to death [mortal]. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.**

Luke 12:47-48**

47"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

after citing them, i would analyze them. 1 john tells us that there are mortal sins and non-mortal sins (venial). then i would take that and read luke 12, and see that “beaten with many blows” can only refer to damnation, while “beaten with few blows” can only refer to temporal punnishment (and by extention, purgatory - but i would save that debate). in order for a sin to be mortal, 3 things are required:

  1. sufficiently grave matter (“worthy of many blows”)
  2. knowledge of this matter (“who knows his master’s will”)
  3. free conscent of the will (“who does”). you cannot be “forced” into mortal sin - it can only be mortal sin if you choose to do it.

it is only with the understanding of the possible “loss of salvific grace” can rom 11:22 be reconciled:

Rom 11:22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

**
DO NOT FALL PRAY TO VERSE SLINGING** when speaking with our separated brother!! analyze each verse, and properly determine context. make sure you offer this same courtesy to him that you will, in turn, insist on. if you don’t have the catholic answer after reading the four verses prior and four verses subsequent to any given quoted text, have faith - the bible is a catholic book, and it defends our faith better than any other!

good luck, and God bless,
RyanL

Hi Sooner,

The entire book of Hebrews warns the follower of Christ about the consequences of turning away from his/her Savior. You might want to read it and invite your friend to, also.

Hebrews 3: 7-19:

7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ "

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Boomer Sooner,

Have you picked up your copy of “Catholicism vs. Fundimentalism” yet? Make haste!

search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ox7xSpSBU4&isbn=0898701775&itm=1

RyanL

         Originally Posted by **Br. Rich SFO**

By choosing to turn and walk away from their relationship with Christ by sinning.

      With all do respect I now this, but how do you explain this to one who wants scriptural reference and at the same token believes all sin is equal in its severity?

Romans 3:

Well then, is a Jew any better off? Is there any advantage in being circumcised? A great advantage in every way. First, the Jews are the people to whom God’s message was entrusted. What if some of them were unfaithful? Will their lack of fidelity cancel God’s fidelity? That would be absurd. God will always be true even though everyone proves to be false; so scripture says: *in all you say your justice shows and when you are judged you win your case. *But if our lack of holiness makes God demonstrate his integrity, how can we say God is unjust when—to use human analogy—he gets angry with us in return? That would be absurd; it would mean God could never judge the world. You might as well say that since my untruthfulness makes God demonstrate his truthfulness and thus gives him glory, I should not be judged to be a sinner at all. That would be the same as saying: Do evil as a means to good. Some slanderers have accused us of teaching this, but they are justly condemned.

[font=&quot][font=Comic Sans MS]Is anybody better off because they have made a sinners prayer? Do they have the advantage? Will God not judge our sins? Will he say that since we have made the sinners prayer and accepted Jesus, He doesnt care?[/font][/font]

1 Cor 12. The man who thinks he is safe must be careful that he does not fall.

We must use reason…… I have never understood why some think that once they have made a sinners prayer and have accepted Jesus in their heart they are safe forever, no matter what sin they commit. Dont people realize there is arrogance and haughtiness in walking around claiming “I am saved and you are not”? I know a very powerful and well known evangelist who answered a similar question once and said that no matter how many sins we commit they are forgiven and we cannot be lost.

  Does this person believe in free will? If so, people have a free will to reject Jesus or accept him. Otherwise we would be like robots.

  Remember the fallen angels. They knew full well (better than we ever will) the consequences but they still choose to rebel. In the same way we also can reject God and He will be true to what we have chosen and what state our soul is in at the time of our death. 

[font=&quot] [/font]

[quote=RyanL]Boomer Sooner,

Have you picked up your copy of “Catholicism vs. Fundimentalism” yet? Make haste!

search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=ox7xSpSBU4&isbn=0898701775&itm=1

RyanL
[/quote]

Right now I am reading “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn. Actually this is my 3rd time reading it… I love that book.

I am also reading “Pierced by a Sword”… AWESOME BOOK… half way through it!

And of Course Daily Scriptures from daily mass!

have you had a chance to listen to scott hahn’s lamb’s supper yet?

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6607&T1=scott+hahn

i haven’t… if you have, could you tell me if it’s different than the book (or if it’s any good at all)?

in my experience, hahn will serve to deepen your faith, while keating will teach you how to defend it. if you want to keep discussing with your OSAS friend, i would recommend picking it up (even if you have a couple other books you’re working on).

RyanL

…jump ship i suppose:confused:

TOBYLUE!!! That was awesome! Everybody that provided information gave an awesome response no doubt!

I never really expressed my faith until my friend asked me on Saturday, how a Catholic becomes saved. My initial response is that we relive our baptism every single day of our life to reaffirm our faith, it is not a 1 time occurance. That summed it up, but then he shot back and said, “When asking Jesus to save you, you are saying Jesus your the only way to heaven, not by my own self, I but my faith in you and you alone at that moment in time we are all saved!”

I said sarcastically, WOW lets stop going to church and sleep in on Sundays, after all we are saved.

Then he spun it by saying… Well… if you are truly saved you wouldn’t do that… WHAT!!! COME ON YOU CAN SPIN IT THAT WAY MAN…

I don’t get it… it’s like logic and reasoning are thrown at the window. Granted the mysteries of our faith are not logical in perspective, but come on… What do you say to somebody like this?

[quote=RyanL]have you had a chance to listen to scott hahn’s lamb’s supper yet?

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6607&T1=scott+hahn

i haven’t… if you have, could you tell me if it’s different than the book (or if it’s any good at all)?

in my experience, hahn will serve to deepen your faith, while keating will teach you how to defend it. if you want to keep discussing with your OSAS friend, i would recommend picking it up (even if you have a couple other books you’re working on).

RyanL
[/quote]

I’m sorry but you are filled with the HOly Spirit, actually I’m not sorry…

Yes I have listened to all but the last 2… It is awesome it is like the book, but if you are anything like me… I like to hear and read things to reaffirm what is actually taking place. I would rec to listen to the series.

This just in (My protestant friend in blue/ mine are in normal text)

We blieve that there is a point in everyones life when they either
except the Holy Spirit into there lives or they reject him. This is
what being saved is. Once you have accepted Jesus as your lord and
savior the Holy Spirit enters you life. This is how you become a new
person. You consious or thought process changes.

In short you believe in once saved always saved.

***Once you have received the Holy Spirit you enter the Kingdom of Heaven. ***This is how you become a new person. You consious or thought process changes. Once you have
received the Holy Spirit you enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

If one excepts the Holy Spirit by believing Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior they receive the Holy Spirit on the same day and also enter the Kingdom of Heaven at that moment in time of their life?

I do believe on earth sin is sin.

Where in scripture is this supported?

In Heaven you get different rewards for you works, in Hell you get different punishments for your sins.

I tend to agree. To what degree or extent I’m not quite sure myself. Maybe I can do some research on this.

***Once you are saved and you in heaven God does not punish you for your sins. *God does Judge you but all he sees is Jesus Christ and we are let in. **We are not punished.

This further indicates your support of “Once Saved Always Saved”.

If you are not saved then god judges you and sin everyone sins you go to hell.


Not sure if I understand this fully, with all do respects.

We say this because anything from stilling a cookie too doing what Osama did will
keep you out of heaven.

I’m definatly going to read that book that I mentioned in my previous reply. Because a child that steals a cookie compared to what Osama did is a huge difference and I believe in my heart even Jesus Christ himself as he stated through scriptures sees a difference in this.

As I said faith can be a sensative issue and again I’m trying not to offend you. I know the differences in our beliefs. I hope I made sense in explaining mine.

Actually, the book you NEED to get is The Salvation Controversy, by James Akin. It will show from scripture why salvation is NOT a one time event, but rather a process that starts at a particular time and continues until we die.

There is no logic in “Once Saved, Always Saved” - to truly believe this heresy requires not just throwing reasoning and most of scriptures out the window, but completely destroying one’s conscience as well.

You were on the right track with your sarcastic response, but you could have pressed your friend harder: “ WOW, since a saved” man has a guarantee that he will enter heaven no matter how he lives his life on earth, then that means he could die as an unrepentant Satan worshipper whose last act on earth was to commit the unforgivable sin. So tell me my friend, what would an unrepentant, unforgiven Satan worshipper do in heaven? And if God can allow an unforgiven Satan worshipper into heaven, why won’t God allow everyone to enter heaven?”

Your friend gave himself away when he replied that “if you are truly saved you wouldn’t do that.” That proves that your friend really doesn’t believe in OSAS - what he really believes is that living a moral life is not optional for a Christian. (There is still hope for your friend because he has not yet made a shipwreck of his faith by committing the blasphemy of rejecting conscience).

Ask your friend what happens to the backslid Christian that dies unrepentant for living an immoral life.This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith, among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1Timothy 1:18-20

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Corinthians 6:9-10

His heart is hardened, his grandpa told him somethings about the catholic church that has carried over into his adulthood, so he rejects any teachings whether it sound true or not to him.

[quote=Matt16_18]There is no logic in “Once Saved, Always Saved” - to truly believe this heresy requires not just throwing reasoning and most of scriptures out the window, but completely destroying one’s conscience as well.

You were on the right track with your sarcastic response, but you could have pressed your friend harder: “ WOW, since a saved” man has a guarantee that he will enter heaven no matter how he lives his life on earth, then that means he could die as an unrepentant Satan worshipper whose last act on earth was to commit the unforgivable sin. So tell me my friend, what would an unrepentant, unforgiven Satan worshipper do in heaven? And if God can allow an unforgiven Satan worshipper into heaven, why won’t God allow everyone to enter heaven?”
[/quote]

You know what he would say to that… well that person never truly had faith in God or else he wouldn’t have become a Satan Worshipper.

Your friend gave himself away when he replied that “if you are truly saved you wouldn’t do that.” That proves that your friend really doesn’t believe in OSAS - what he really believes is that living a moral life is not optional for a Christian. (There is still hope for your friend because he has not yet made a shipwreck of his faith by committing the blasphemy of rejecting conscience).

Again, I have said that before, and he spins it by saying… That person was never saved in the first place… God knows his heart and his heart obviously wasn’t in the right place if he turns his back on God. Oh believe me, you are preaching to the choir my friend. I do believe there is hope and I believe I have to become a better wittness of the faith as a friend by my thoughts (obviously he can’t here them), words, and actions.

Ask your friend what happens to the backslid Christian that dies unrepentant for living an immoral life.

His response to this is as follows: **I believe losing your salvation is wrong for this reason. We gain our salvation through Jesus Christ and Him alone. If we have to work to keep it that is placing our salvation in the hands of ourselves to keep it. God also say he will never let us go.
**

Obviously this idealogy refutes many scriptures. I have pointed it all out, but he spins the scriptures and says it means something else.

If I give him the book that was recommended, he wouldn’t read it. Because he already has it set in his mind that he is right and I am wrong… No matter what scripture I pose to him. Then I ask him to logically think about what he is saying and he says Jesus Christ’s mystery of salvation is not logical… that is why it is a mystery.

I don’t want to give up, maybe some day he will search the truth… I don’t know if he is ready or what is up.

Ask your friend if he believes that grace destroys the free-will of a Christian.

[quote=Matt16_18]Ask your friend if he believes that grace destroys the free-will of a Christian.
[/quote]

If he answers yes?

If he answers no?

You need to know which version of the heresy of OSAS you are arguing against. If your friend answers yes, then you are dealing with the Calvinist version of the heresy of OSAS. Stick to the issue of free will, and show your friend the lunacy of asserting that scriptures teach that a Christian is incapable of committing a sin. If your friend admits that he is capable of committing a sin, then ask him why John, when writing to Christians, made a distinction between sin that is mortal and sin that is not mortal. Then ask your friend if a Christian could commit the sin of apostasy. If he says no, ask him how a non-Christian could ever commit the sin of apostasy.

If your friend says that he is incapable of committing a sin since he is a Christian, he is either lying, or he has destroyed his conscience. There is no point in arguing with a liar or someone who has destroyed their conscience.

If he answers no?

If he answers no, then you are dealing with the antinomian version of the heresy of OSAS. (The typical Southern Baptist believes both in this flavor of OSAS and that he has free will).

The antinomian version of OSAS falsely asserts that once a man becomes a Christian, that there is NO sin that he could commit that would condemn him to hell. “No sin” obviously includes the possibility that a Christian could commit horrible sins and die unrepentant for his sinful life.

Press your friend on whether he believes that a Christian that dies unrepentant for committing the unforgivable sin will enter heaven. If he answers yes, then he believes that there can be unforgiven sinners in heaven, and you should ask him why all unforgiven sinners will not enter heaven when they die. If he answer no to this question, then your friend believes that it is indeed possible for a Christian to commit at least one sin that would damn him to hell - your friend believes that a Christian that is unrepentant for committing the unforgivable sin will be damned. This proves that your friend really does NOT believe that once a man is saved, that there is NO sin that a Christian could commit bring about eternal damnation. If your friend does not concede this point, then realize that there is no point in arguing with someone that flip-flops when his contradictory beliefs are exposed. Such people have rejected reason to cling to a false doctrine that cannot save them. Their faith is not in Christ, but in the false doctine of OSAS.

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