How does summorum pontificum effect diocesan priesthood


#1

could a priest enter the seminary of a diocese with the intention of only saying the tridentine mass and the 1962 sacraments? Does anyone know of a diocsean priest who only says the tridentine mass and not the novus ordo?


#2

[quote="notredame_999, post:1, topic:232302"]
could a priest enter the seminary of a diocese with the intention of only saying the tridentine mass and the 1962 sacraments? Does anyone know of a diocsean priest who only says the tridentine mass and not the novus ordo?

[/quote]

It would be like getting a job at a fancy restaurant, and then insisting to your manager that you only serve the entrees.

But why don't you go on and try asking your diocese's vocations office. :D


#3

I dont know the exact answer to your question, but a diocesan priest does make promises to be obedient to his bishop.


#4

[quote="notredame_999, post:1, topic:232302"]
could a priest enter the seminary of a diocese with the intention of only saying the tridentine mass and the 1962 sacraments? Does anyone know of a diocsean priest who only says the tridentine mass and not the novus ordo?

[/quote]

Say only the Extraordinary form? No, that is not the charism of being a diocesan priest.

The closest I am aware of are the priests at Assumption Grotto in Detroit. The EF is the predominant form at that parish,, but they do have the Ordinary Form on the Mass schedule, abiet in Latin and ad orientum; with Holy Communion offered at the communion rail by the priests alone. They are diocesan priests.

A diocesan priest may still learn and say the Mass, and even introduce it to his parish schedule.

Here in Detroit, we have 4 parishes (that I am aware of) that offer the Tridentine Mass as part of their regular weekend Mass schedule, and all are said by diocesan priests.


#5

I don't think you can pick and choose, what you want to do.


#6

[quote="notredame_999, post:1, topic:232302"]
could a priest enter the seminary of a diocese with the intention of only saying the tridentine mass and the 1962 sacraments? Does anyone know of a dioceean priest who only says the tridentine mass and not the novus ordo?

[/quote]

You could not do this. Like it or not, the OF is the predominant form of the Mass. A diocesan parish needs to be the sort of place where any local Catholic will be able to go. By not using the OF, a diocesan priest would exclude the majority of his potential congregation.

A second thing to consider is whether or not the parish will even want it. Understand, there are many people who will walk out and go to another parish if you try to bring about the EF. You could lose enormous numbers of people who will leave the Church or simply go to another parish because they will find your actions so distasteful. A diocesan priest who causes this will be considered a failure by many in the Church, and will most likely be moved to some tiny parish. Your intentions may be good, but it could end badly.

Ultimately, you would HAVE to celebrate the OF. A lot. You might not be the pastor. In that case, you would have to conform to what the pastor wants, and pretty much every pastor in the diocesan priesthood used the OF. If you are the pastor, you still can't suddenly come to a parish used to the OF and say "Hey everyone, I'm gonna use a liturgy all of you are unfamiliar with, all the time. You cool with that?" As said before, people will get upset. You'd have to ease them into it very slowly. I know priests who have worked on "traditionalizing" their parishes, and it's a slow process. In the meantime you'd have to celebrate the OF, and you would never be allowed to totally exclude the OF by your bishop. Even if you do get the EF part of the time, for all you know you'll get moved to a new parish (trust me, sooner or later you will), in which case you'll have to start all over again.

So no, you could not do this. It would be impossible to accomplish, and no diocesan seminary will want a man who will not celebrate the OF. The main purpose of the diocese is to minister to the laity, and most of the laity know the OF. They will not want someone who will not conform to that. Many diocesan seminaries don't even teach the EF, and the ones that do still require you to know the OF. They will not make an exception in your case.


#7

One thing to remember though, is that the Church gives the celebrant a lot of authority.

Since the OF is normative in Latin, a celebrant can freely choose to celebrate the Mass in Latin. Likewise with facing ad orientium.

So while you will be obligated to say the Mass in the Ordinary Form, a priest is always free to say it using the universal Norms.


#8

[quote="Brendan, post:7, topic:232302"]
One thing to remember though, is that the Church gives the celebrant a lot of authority.

Since the OF is normative in Latin, a celebrant can freely choose to celebrate the Mass in Latin. Likewise with facing ad orientium.

So while you will be obligated to say the Mass in the Ordinary Form, a priest is always free to say it using the universal Norms.

[/quote]

Indeed. The problem is that many parishes are not used to this, so if a priest suddenly brings these changes about it will alienate others. I know of a pastor in Rhode Island who slowly traditionalized his parish. And I mean slowly. He couldn't do things to quickly, and he had to explain everything every step of the way. Had he just suddenly made these shifts without a very gradual process the whole parish would have gotten liturgical whiplash. One can't simply come into a parish and do how you please, especially if you're not the pastor, or if the bishop orders you to do something else. Not even if what you want to do is good. It has to be done slowly.


#9

[quote="Brendan, post:4, topic:232302"]

A diocesan priest may still learn and say the Mass, and even introduce it to his parish schedule.

[/quote]

Can you give reference to this? I do not believe a secular priest may introduce the EF to the parish schedule. I do not even believe a pastor can do so.

I believe that Summorum Pontificum only gives the priest the right to celebrate the EF Mass privately. I do not remember anything in it saying that a priest (or a pastor) can just add it to the parishes schedule. Ultimately the bishop is the pastor of all the parishes and any changes to the schedules would need to be approved by him. A priest (or pastor) could also not just add another Mass to the schedule as canonically celebrate two Masses on Sunday/Holy Day, or three with the Bishop's approval.


#10

[quote="ByzCath, post:9, topic:232302"]
Can you give reference to this? I do not believe a secular priest may introduce the EF to the parish schedule. I do not even believe a pastor can do so.

I believe that Summorum Pontificum only gives the priest the right to celebrate the EF Mass privately. I do not remember anything in it saying that a priest (or a pastor) can just add it to the parishes schedule. Ultimately the bishop is the pastor of all the parishes and any changes to the schedules would need to be approved by him. A priest (or pastor) could also not just add another Mass to the schedule as canonically celebrate two Masses on Sunday/Holy Day, or three with the Bishop's approval.

[/quote]

If theoretically both rites (tridentine and novus ordo) are both valid and have spiritual value, why does it matter which one is said?

Why should a diocsean priest need permission from a bishop to say a mass that is valid and has been used by 95% of the saints?

I would just like someone to articulate why the tridentine mass is treated like its some kind of land mine that must be handled delicately otherwise we all be incinerated by it.


#11

[quote="notredame_999, post:10, topic:232302"]
If theoretically both rites (tridentine and novus ordo) are both valid and have spiritual value, why does it matter which one is said?

Why should a diocsean priest need permission from a bishop to say a mass that is valid and has been used by 95% of the saints?

I would just like someone to articulate why the tridentine mass is treated like its some kind of land mine that must be handled delicately otherwise we all be incinerated by it.

[/quote]

It matters because not all parishes will be willing to accept the EF.

Also, 95% of the saints didn't use the EF, given that the rubrics were made in 1962 ;)

It's a landmine because people treat it that way. It's rather oddly self causing. Read my posts if you haven't already. The fact is that it's not easy to implement it into a parish. It upsets people, and bishops do not want to cause unnecessary conflicts within parishes.


#12

[quote="Biedrik, post:11, topic:232302"]
and bishops do not want to cause unnecessary conflicts within parishes.

[/quote]

Thats their job though, to promote the catholic faith even if its unpopular, not to be a cheerleader. If the NO rubrics insist on Latin and Ad Orientum, then it should be done that way. Period.


#13

[quote="notredame_999, post:12, topic:232302"]
Thats their job though, to promote the catholic faith even if its unpopular, not to be a cheerleader. If the NO rubrics insist on Latin and Ad Orientum, then it should be done that way. Period.

[/quote]

The OF promotes the Catholic faith too notredame. And celebrating in the vernacular and versus populum is allowed. Should bishops take a bigger step towards tradition? I think so, but one must also realize that it's something that is done gradually. Most people are simply used to the OF and don't even really think of the EF. It's just not an issue with their lives. If you start suddenly changing the liturgy that they've come to be comfortable with there will much resentment. It has to be done slowly and delicately. You see how much chaos and disagreement the sudden liturgical changes made in the sixties and seventies caused. It could cause as much anger and disagreement if it suddenly swung the other way. The liturgy needs to evolve organically, not forcefully.

And ultimately, if you are a priest it's the bishop's call, not yours. No matter how much you may want it to be.


#14

[quote="Biedrik, post:13, topic:232302"]

And ultimately, if you are a priest it's the bishop's call, not yours. No matter how much you may want it to be.

[/quote]

That is a point that must always be kept in the forefront. Priests are to be OBEDIENT to their bishops and NOT usurp their power.


#15

I believe you can say the EF exclusively if you join the FSSP or the ICRSS or if negotiations work out with Rome, the SSPX.


#16

[quote="Marie5890, post:14, topic:232302"]
That is a point that must always be kept in the forefront. Priests are to be OBEDIENT to their bishops and NOT usurp their power.

[/quote]

But the Pope can limit the power of the bishops as well.


#17

[quote="notredame_999, post:12, topic:232302"]
Thats their job though, to promote the catholic faith even if its unpopular, not to be a cheerleader. If the NO rubrics insist on Latin and Ad Orientum, then it should be done that way. Period.

[/quote]

We should probably call it the OF. Personally I wish all OF's would be done in Latin, especially in bi-lingual communities and I don't know of a single bishop who opposes some Latin to be included in all liturgies. After all that is what Vatican II ordered.


#18

[quote="ProVobis, post:16, topic:232302"]
But the Pope can limit the power of the bishops as well.

[/quote]

He can, but that doesn't change the fact that a priest must obey his bishop even when he doesn't like it. It's one of the promises made at his ordination.


#19

[quote="Biedrik, post:18, topic:232302"]
He can, but that doesn't change the fact that a priest must obey his bishop even when he doesn't like it. It's one of the promises made at his ordination.

[/quote]

Thank you. That was the point I was trying to make. :thumbsup:


#20

[quote="Biedrik, post:18, topic:232302"]
He can, but that doesn't change the fact that a priest must obey his bishop even when he doesn't like it. It's one of the promises made at his ordination.

[/quote]

St. Thomas Aquinas defined the virtue of obedience as conforming one's will to the will of one who has legitimate authority.

If the bishop is not the authority on a particular matter, then the conformation of one's will to that would not be obedience. The corollary is that NOT conforming one's will would not be disobedience.

A priest's vow of obedience does not extent to following the bishop when he is disobedient to Rome.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.