Just wondering how the church relates scientific knowledge to spiritual readings and understanding, since the Holy Spirit is our helper to give us understanding in these matters.
Why would we need scientific knowledge where god has the answer and God tells us the Holy Spirit will help.
E.G. from another thread, sorry can’t think of who, (Hammony …I think).
The church does not teach that sexual orientation is not a choice, it has not made a pronouncement on that matter as that is still under scientific investigation.
Knowledge inflates with Pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
Just look at the science threads here at CAF, especially the evolution threads, and watch the inflated egos of those who suppose they know so much. Science is not bad in and of itself, but it leads many to inflate their Pride.
And Wisdom Chapter 13 has a lot to say on the matter (Science worship) as well.
science is useful because God can be known through the things He has created (Vatican I, Dei Filius). The more we know of the intricacies of nature, most especially seen in the human body, the more we realise how an intelligent designer is necessary and also how intelligent that designer is!
Science is but one aspect of Truth - the Truth of how the world works. It does not answer questions such as “why”. I think it was Albert Einstein who said that science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind. It is the unity of faith and reason that the human spirit can soar to Truths previously unknown to us.
It has been said that science can lead to pride, and while this is true, because of the draw of knowledge, those who have done so have lost perspective of the truth they pursue; the same can apply to those who study religion, who think they know more than they actually do. Knowledge, be it from faith or reason, can lead to pride if it has lost its place. Regardless of what we study, be it history, science, theology, languages etc., it cannot conflict with our faith because Truth is Truth is Truth, and Truth is God. If we do find a conflict it is because we are looking at one or both the wrong way.
well said Archus. I understand that in the Middle Ages, science was seen as the handmaid of theology (well, philosophy was, but we can lump science in with it as natural reason). Where science meets its limit, theology takes over. Theology was seen as the queen of sciences.
John Paul II wrote an encyclical called Faith and Reason (Fides et Ratio), which explains the relationship between what we can know by natural reason as perceived through the senses (science and philosophy) and what we know through revelation (faith):
natural reason is important because it provides a bridge with the non-believing world for dialogue. For example, where science is concerned, knowing that the DNA molecule is basically a very complex language (like a computer language far more complex than we have ever devised, according to Bill Gates) can help to show the non-believing world that there must be an extremely intelligent origin, because a language can only come from a being with intelligence. There are also moral issues which we can discuss through natural reason and not just because God has said a certain thing about them, which helps put the Church’s teaching across.
Science is but one aspect of Truth - the Truth of how the world works. It does not answer questions such as “why”. I don’t think that this is exactly right since there is only ONE truth, and that is the word of God, or God is “TRUTH” I believe that what you are saying is that science is a form of " perception and or, understanding" based upon mans study and hypothesis proved as mans understanding. But may NOT be truth, since God in deciding “truth” takes in the realm of “spirit” in analyzing mans behavior. So mans form of reality is so far removed from Gods “truth” that it could NOT be seen as complete truth, so must be seen as an inconsistent reliability, bound to change as time diminishes or man relates for better or worse.
I got my information from both my personal experience, and also as Nick9 has posted, JP2’s Fides et Ratio. I said it is but one aspect of Truth, I did not say it led to more than one truth. You have actually ignored the latter part of my post, which I stated that Truth is Truth is Truth, and Truth is God. There is only one Truth, and that is God. Yet, the studies has shown us that in terms of coming to know Truth, there are different focuses, the same way that the Trinity is three distinct persons, yet is the same, one true God. Science, as you have wrongly stated, is not, “perception”, and/or, “understanding” with regards to hypothesis and experimentation. Science is the physical persuit of Truth. That is, the study and pursuit of Truth that can be perceived physically - the world around us. Biology studies life (scientifically), chemistry studies the properties of that physicality which is matter. Physics studies the interactions of the world, from the colossal scale of the universe and galaxies to the smallest partitions of the atom on the quantum and planck scale. Moving on to the social sciences, they show how humans behave and interact with the world (hence social science, I suppose). Just as a man can be called homo sapiens, Man, a human or a body of atoms, water can be called H2O, be given religious importance through Baptism and the blood and water that flowed from Christ on the Cross, and as a symbol of life and mercy to us. These are all true, all aspire to the one Truth and that is that God made it; God gave us it.
How can atoms negate God’s existence? Surely by the beauty and simplicity of their existence, draws us only closer to Him because He made up the damn things! The same things that create a table, computer, houses, soil, trees, other life are the same things that create us, yet we are the only ones who truly live and is created for its own sake (not counting animals and plants - though they are alive, they do not have a soul and I thus differentiate from ‘alive’ and ‘living’ for the purposes of this). With the same crude matter we are created in God’s image, and we are given purpose and faith through the light of God, and we experience the world around us through the light of reason.
I would suggest you read *Fides et Ratio, *it explains it better than I can, and I don’t want to be done for plagarism!
You must realise that there are two parts to us, both a body *and *a spirit. Science relates to the body, what you ascribe to ‘Truth’ relates only to the Spirit, yet we breathe in air molecules and drive cars. He made both, Truth, that is, God, allowed both. Our faith is not summed up by an ‘either/or’ argument, but ‘both/and’. We are both body and soul. Truth comprises of both faith and reason. The objects of the world, be it trees or otherwise, holds both scientific credence and religious significance.
I did not say Science is a different Truth - only one part of a greater Truth that we can constantly explore and never avail, for, like the rest of God, is a Mystery that will be brought into fullness at the end of time. Basically, it is the same as a body - it is only one body, but has different parts (a head, torso, legs, arms, hands, fingers and the like. Deeper still - skin, organs, blood, etc.).
It seems to me that you have something in your mind about science when you brought up the topic. Yes, at some point, people rely on science and forget about God, but don’t forget that science is about some knowledge that God allows us to understand - for example: how rain forms? how a certain disease happen to us? Also, some people just need to know where to stop being God.
I have a few questions for you?
What does the Bible say about weather forcast?
Do you think the Pope ever use TV’s weather forcast before visiting the U.S?
Do you believe taking medicine for headache or other kind of diseases are against the Holy Spirit?
Now this is a different answer to what you might find. Jesus spoke with Luke (the Dr) there was nothing wrong with that and Jesus spoke about seeing a Dr when things go wrong. However I am a person who used to have sever headaches, migraine, and stress related health problems. I worked on how i started getting them and through prayer and natural thought patterns i now have NO headaches, NO migraine. Some of these things can be akin to spiritual attacks others to not relating to pressure hence it gaining strength into stress.
Still I say no there is no working against the Holy Spirit.
Sorry long way around.
Hi, well I could be throwing a spanner in the works here.
**I see the situation as “God made mankind to His own likeness”. Agreed? But God is THREE not two. Lets look at it this way, there is the Father( Spirit and creator), Son the redeemer (body form) and then there is the Holy Spirit, the helper. Agreed? Now here is where my science gets spiritual.
So I think we must be made of three parts as God is, in our being made to His likeness, and not two parts. We must be made of Spirit because God told us He made us to His likeness, (spirit). The body because the spirit needs an encasement while on this earth, and needs to give itself over to God so that the “Holy Spirit” can come in, so as to speak by invitation. Them there is the soul which has free choice in the human nature, and those actions will be judged in the end.**
This is why I say there is one Truth and mankind is only able to grasp a form slight realization (as you have noted) his limited ability a slight appreciation of God’s being in Truth. All else is a reality, in that is pertains to the need (or near enough to sustain the need for life in a human relationship)
Make sense? This I have found in my ten years of study in HR Science, Psychologies and cultural studies. They have not given me what i needed, to sustain my growth in spiritual binding with God. i always found the studies wanting for a need of depth, and life. My essays were always seen as far too deep, with no place to apply biblical aptitudes.
So, what you were trying to get at is that there is nothing wrong with science as long as we stay closed to the teaching of the Church. Besides, do you have question in this thread or you just raised a question and later answered so that you might hope others will get the answer? Sometimes, I thought that is how you normally do.
Yes I agree, at times I do that and on purpose, and it is because people ask me questions about certain spiritual points and I sometimes cannot get the question of my mind and it could be that the Holy Spirit might be probing so that the questioner who feels unable to put on paper is helped.
I would say the same way you and others do the same. Without our knowing it is the Holy Spirit.
About science though, God created all things (our minds and brains as well) so it must be good for God to see how His children use the sciences. In that capacity I agree that there is a place for science in the positive that is. As I said earlier, I was shocked at what I have found out about the star structures and clusters, the the milky way planets and there placement, etc. Electric current, the use of crystal in electricity, and music. They to me are all good, and God’s creation is all there if ones eyes are open to it.
I am not God. So, I like to ask these questions to find other peoples understanding or again, someone might get some help some how.
Hope that helps.