How far can you go?


#1

I've been reading through the many posts about whether Muslims worship the same God as Christians, and it got me wondering about the more general question (maybe answered in the thread, but I don't have the time to read through 100+ posts, and it may be worth repeating in a shorter thread).

How far does it go? If I accept God, but think He did different things, for example established an invisible and not visible church, thinks the Eucharist is symbolic, was an iconoclast... basically, if God is a Southern Baptist, is that God still the same? What is the breaking point? What are the essential parts of God when, if I believe something different, I'm no longer thinking of God but of some other god or being?

It seems like there are various levels of disagreement:
[LIST=1]
*]Speculative disagreements
*]Schismatic divisions.
*]Heresy
*]Apostacy
[/LIST]

When is it acceptable for a Catholic to just have different ideas about the faith? When is that a point in which the Catholic is breaking off from the Church? At what point does it become material heresy? And at what point do you start a new religion?

Finally, what point does your new religion begin to worship a new god, and not the same god as the Catholics worship?

Thanks.


#2

Well I was watching Brannon Howse on the NRB network last night and he said that our Pope said ...'we and the Muslims worship the same God'...

I never heard that before and I wouldn't have thought it to be a divine truth but if that's correct, well, I'm inclined to think what the Pope thinks. But up to last night I always thought Satan was the driving spiritual force of those selfish, backward, uncivilized, violent and intolerant people.


#3

My 2 cents worth…

The Bible tells us that “God is Love”…Therefore, if your God is not “Love” then you are in error.
After this, the question becomes one of discovering what that Love is of which John (and Jesus) speaks.

Peace
James


#4

[quote="Carolus_Martell, post:2, topic:283607"]
Well I was watching Brannon Howse on the NRB network last night and he said that our Pope said ...'we and the Muslims worship the same God'...

I never heard that before and I wouldn't have thought it to be a divine truth but if that's correct, well, I'm inclined to think what the Pope thinks. But up to last night I always thought Satan was the driving spiritual force of those selfish, backward, uncivilized, violent and intolerant people.

[/quote]

One needs to be careful with such generalizations. If Satan is the driving force behind what you write above, then who is the driving force behind those Christians who display the same "selfish, backward, uncivilized, violent and intolerant" natures but use the Bible instead of the Koran for their justification?

Peace
James


#5

[quote="Brandon_Rimmer, post:1, topic:283607"]
I've been reading through the many posts about whether Muslims worship the same God as Christians, and it got me wondering about the more general question (maybe answered in the thread, but I don't have the time to read through 100+ posts, and it may be worth repeating in a shorter thread).

How far does it go? If I accept God, but think He did different things, for example established an invisible and not visible church, thinks the Eucharist is symbolic, was an iconoclast... basically, if God is a Southern Baptist, is that God still the same? What is the breaking point? What are the essential parts of God when, if I believe something different, I'm no longer thinking of God but of some other god or being?

It seems like there are various levels of disagreement:
[LIST=1]
*]Speculative disagreements
*]Schismatic divisions.
*]Heresy
*]Apostacy
[/LIST]

When is it acceptable for a Catholic to just have different ideas about the faith? When is that a point in which the Catholic is breaking off from the Church? At what point does it become material heresy? And at what point do you start a new religion?

Finally, what point does your new religion begin to worship a new god, and not the same god as the Catholics worship?

Thanks.

[/quote]

Brandon,

You operate as if these threads are the only place to find information. Recall I pointed out to you Alfred Korzybski and General Semantics. He points out two things. Humans bind space, energy and time. Time binding is what makes humans unique. He also points out that "the map is not the territory".

Time binding is nothing more than taking information from the past and building on it. God. Is there a God? If there is a God then those that defined one God would be the Israelites/Jews...behold O Israel, the Lord our God is One...

Muslims came later in time and accepted that there is one God.

Christians accepted the One God and built on the understanding as a triune God

So in terms of understanding who believes in what God...look back when someone defined one God and then move forward and do what humans did in time...bind the time or unite the information provided...

The map is not the territory. There is one God. Inside everyone's head is an understanding of that one God, the map...the map is not the territory...the territory is and our maps differ by way of our understanding...

Why do you want to create such difficult thinking in your head...

Korzybski says that this leads to "unsanity"...try to get sane....


#6

Brandon,
Good topic, my 1c

  • There is only one God and that doesn’t change.
  • Our perception and knowledge of God is what differs, so it is incorrect to believe other people worship a seperate God.

I think the parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant best explains the situation.
I believe catholics have a more complete view of ‘the elephant’ yet much of it still remains a mystery.
http://emergent-culture.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/12-blind-men-elephant.jpg


#7

[quote="tarboy, post:6, topic:283607"]
Brandon,
Good topic, my 1c
- There is only one God and that doesn't change.
- Our perception and knowledge of God is what differs, so it is incorrect to believe other people worship a seperate God.

I think the parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant best explains the situation.
I believe catholics have a more complete view of 'the elephant' yet much of it still remains a mystery.
http://emergent-culture.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/12-blind-men-elephant.jpg

[/quote]

This is a perfect example of each individual with a map of the territory. The territory is what it is. The map differs according to each.:thumbsup:


#8

[quote="Brandon_Rimmer, post:1, topic:283607"]
I've been reading through the many posts about whether Muslims worship the same God as Christians, and it got me wondering about the more general question (maybe answered in the thread, but I don't have the time to read through 100+ posts, and it may be worth repeating in a shorter thread).

How far does it go? If I accept God, but think He did different things, for example established an invisible and not visible church, thinks the Eucharist is symbolic, was an iconoclast... basically, if God is a Southern Baptist, is that God still the same? What is the breaking point? What are the essential parts of God when, if I believe something different, I'm no longer thinking of God but of some other god or being?

It seems like there are various levels of disagreement:
[LIST=1]
*]Speculative disagreements
*]Schismatic divisions.
*]Heresy
*]Apostacy
[/LIST]

When is it acceptable for a Catholic to just have different ideas about the faith? When is that a point in which the Catholic is breaking off from the Church? At what point does it become material heresy? And at what point do you start a new religion?

Finally, what point does your new religion begin to worship a new god, and not the same god as the Catholics worship?

Thanks.

[/quote]

It is not acceptable for Catholic to have different ideas about the faith. You are kind of asking 2 very different questions here.

Do muslims pray to the God of Abraham and worship the One true God creator of heaven and earth. According to our Pope yes they do.

But do they have the true word of the One true God and obey his commandments? No. They follow a false prophet.

When you are a Catholic you have the true word of God given to you by Jesus Christ. How can you not be held accountable for this?

On the same token how can a Muslim be held accountable for not following the true word of God when it was not given to them.

It is never acceptable for a Catholic to turn away from the truth and reject other teachings. In the bible it tells you stick to the teaching of the early fathers of the Church and do not let anyone lead you astray.

The bible tells you many will say did I not teach in your name, do great miracles in your name? And what did God say, He said get away from me, I do not know you.

The bible tells you many will claim to teach in his name. But did he say when they teach in his name they are making him false? No they did not, He said they are teaching in HIS NAME to fool you and to get you to do what they want, not what God wants.

Did Muhammad ever claim to be God? No he never did. He claimed to have a revelation from God. Does that make God false or Muhammad a liar?

Read the teachings of Muhammad, most of them are in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus Christ. So now you pick Jesus or Muhammad, or another false prophet who like Muhammad claim to teach in the name of God.

Jesus Christ did one thing NO other prophet did, He did not claim to teach in the name of God. He told us he WAS GOD. Big difference.


#9

[quote="Carolus_Martell, post:2, topic:283607"]
Well I was watching Brannon Howse on the NRB network last night and he said that our Pope said ...'we and the Muslims worship the same God'...

I never heard that before and I wouldn't have thought it to be a divine truth but if that's correct, well, I'm inclined to think what the Pope thinks. But up to last night I always thought Satan was the driving spiritual force of those selfish, backward, uncivilized, violent and intolerant people.

[/quote]

Satan is always the driving force of selfish ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

We know that because God is nothing like that. But remember many people who truly love God and pray to God and do not know the true God, can be fooled by the devil and his false leaders and false promises.

But a false leader does not make God false.

The best example is the devil. Does the devil believe in a false god? NO

But does the devil try to use the True God and trick people to do his work instead of the One True God. All the time.

The devil is evil, and the MASTER of darkness. God tells us. Look at Eve, did he say to Eve eat the fruit and you will die, Remember God said it, But the devil knew it was not physical death it was eternal death.

So he tricked her to sin. Now if he would have said you will have be separated from God, turned away from paradise, and suffer for a very long time, would she have sinned? No.

But he tricked her, and said you can become a god also. Is that not what sin is, putting our wants above Gods.

Did the devil lie to her. Not really she did not die, She had eternal death. See how he can trick people. He is very smart and evil at the same time.

Look how he tried to trick Jesus, to see if Jesus was really God.

But the point is the devil himself knows the one true God, but does not follow him.

But look how the devil is really up front about God if you think about it. He says follow me and turn away from GOD!

How does he do that? Simple read anything that turns people away from God. A way to have your passions and wants which are the opposite from Gods.

Look at what Muhammad promised, virgins, food, drinks etc All earthly things. Everything that drives men to sin, away from God.

Where is heaven about anything like that. Heaven is one thing Eternal life In Christ.


#10

[quote="Carolus_Martell, post:2, topic:283607"]
Well I was watching Brannon Howse on the NRB network last night and he said that our Pope said ...'we and the Muslims worship the same God'...

I never heard that before and I wouldn't have thought it to be a divine truth but if that's correct, well, I'm inclined to think what the Pope thinks. But up to last night I always thought Satan was the driving spiritual force of those selfish, backward, uncivilized, violent and intolerant people.

[/quote]

Now back to the question and make it simple. The Muslims pray to the One God the creator of heaven and earth.

We pray also to the One God.

Remember the Pope can only teach the truth. Now you never heard him say they follow the teachings of the One God do you?

He tells the opposite. He tells them they need to turn to Christ and the true teachings of the One God.

He went there and put it to them pretty good. And many came to Christ by him to, and are comming in record numbers.

The Pope will never deny any truth in any faith. Many faiths pray to the One true God but follow false truths.

Which is proof you can pray to the One true God but be led astray by false teachings. Again God warned us of this in the bible.

The Pope taught us to be kind, merciful and show what truth we have in common also and to not deny them. And with the truth we can always find common ground.

The Pope believes as I do, it is the One True God, the One truth they do have that will lead them to Jesus Christ. And also they believe Jesus and the Blessed Mother to both be without sin. Thats a good start.

We also believe it is the Blessed Mother who will also bring them to her Son. Common ground and beliefs is not a bad place to start.

We have 3. The same God, although they cannot see him in the person of Christ. And the Blessed Mother. What better common ground is there. And they do believe in Christ as a Prophet, but hopefully with the true Gospel can come to see the God in his fullness of the Son.


#11

[quote="Brandon_Rimmer, post:1, topic:283607"]
I've been reading through the many posts about whether Muslims worship the same God as Christians,

[/quote]

Muslims and other monotheists worship what they do not know, as hinted in **(John 4:19-24):*
"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem. Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

*I believe that the main idea is to truly feel GOD's love in your life, once you truly reach that level then I think you are in the right path......


#12

[quote="Sam_777, post:11, topic:283607"]
Muslims and other monotheists worship what they do not know, as hinted in (John 4:19-24):
"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem. Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

I believe that the main idea is to truly feel GOD's love in your life, once you truly reach that level then I think you are in the right path......

[/quote]

Me too..........

Love in Life in begining to understanding the "only" God thus his saving Grace. Here resides the task and mystery. This is where the seperation occurs, between the mind and heart/soul. And of course the discernment practice is what is of the mind, which easily is used in the realm of evil by confirmation of thought, which often leads to cooperation with Temptation, and the realm of the Soul thus the heart. which should only through practice be occupied by God thus the encouragement of establishing Virtues which in practice become Love of all, Forgiveness of all, so our sin is forgiven thus communion with God.

Love cannot equate to anything which is contrary to God who is All Love. Here is the deception of mans mind.

Anyway............

CCs example; "This is a perfect example of each individual with a map of the territory. The territory is what it is. The map differs according to each" Most relevant.

So then the question becomes how does one see outside the incapsulation of their map, to see the whole, thus see the truth. The obstacle is when one assumes they have arrived at the Truth, thus there is no further need to search. How do you know you have the right map to begin with? I would argue the realm of satanic worship is a real map, yet is it "the" map one ought to be following?


#13

[quote="Brandon_Rimmer, post:1, topic:283607"]
I've been reading through the many posts about whether Muslims worship the same God as Christians, and it got me wondering about the more general question (maybe answered in the thread, but I don't have the time to read through 100+ posts, and it may be worth repeating in a shorter thread).

How far does it go? If I accept God, but think He did different things, for example established an invisible and not visible church, thinks the Eucharist is symbolic, was an iconoclast... basically, if God is a Southern Baptist, is that God still the same? What is the breaking point? What are the essential parts of God when, if I believe something different, I'm no longer thinking of God but of some other god or being?

It seems like there are various levels of disagreement:
[LIST=1]
*]Speculative disagreements
*]Schismatic divisions.
*]Heresy
*]Apostacy
[/LIST]

When is it acceptable for a Catholic to just have different ideas about the faith? When is that a point in which the Catholic is breaking off from the Church? At what point does it become material heresy? And at what point do you start a new religion?

Finally, what point does your new religion begin to worship a new god, and not the same god as the Catholics worship?

Thanks.

[/quote]

I believe that Brandon has retreated to star gazing.


#14

[quote="GaryTaylor, post:12, topic:283607"]
how does one see outside the incapsulation of their map, to see the whole, thus see the truth. The obstacle is when one assumes they have arrived at the Truth, thus there is no further need to search.

[/quote]

Another obstacle is when your scripture and your ancestors tell you that the other scriptures are corrupted so it's prohibited to search in them, and even impose rules to confiscate them as seen in this incident.


#15

[quote="tarboy, post:6, topic:283607"]
Brandon,
Good topic, my 1c
- There is only one God and that doesn't change.
- Our perception and knowledge of God is what differs, so it is incorrect to believe other people worship a seperate God.

I think the parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant best explains the situation.
I believe catholics have a more complete view of 'the elephant' yet much of it still remains a mystery.
http://emergent-culture.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/12-blind-men-elephant.jpg

[/quote]

There's only one problem with your analogy, all the blind men are wrong.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.