How many will be saved?


#1

Fr. Barron thinks that very few go to Hell.

Michael Voris says that very few go to Heaven, and "the vast majority of people to go Hell".

Ralph Martin has an intermediate opinion, many go to Hell but most are saved.

Monsignor Charles Pope agrees with Martin and disagrees with Fr. Barron.
blog.adw.org/2012/12/hurts-and-hopes-regarding-the-recent-debates-on-hell/

My opinion is that many souls die unrepentant from actual mortal sin, and are sent to Hell. The majority of persons die in a state of grace and go to Heaven by way of Purgatory. Very few persons die and go straight to Heaven.


#2

No one has enough information to make a valid claim either way. Both positions are speculative and are based on variable interpretations of scripture.


#3

Hi Ron,

This is one of those futile questions that theology students play with in their spare time. Scripture says that God wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now, who created men? God did. Does it make sense that He would create in such a way that it would thwart His purpose? There will certainly be many more people saved than not. But this changes nothing to the fact that we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Don't you think do?

Verbum


#4

We should listen to the consensus of the saints at their feet.


#5

You said “This is one of those futile questions”, but then you answered the question rather definitively “There will certainly be many more people saved than not.” So it is not so futile.

But I agree with you that may more are saved than are lost.

Shin, the theological opinion of the Saints is not Catholic dogma. We must always place Tradition, Scripture, and the teachings of the Magisterium first. I don’t think we can reach the conclusion that the vast majority will be lost to Hell based on any magisterial teaching. So it is an open question.

I would argue that the opportunity for a Baptism of desire or of blood allows all human persons the concrete opportunity for salvation.


#6

[quote="Ron_Conte, post:1, topic:308050"]
Michael Voris says that very few go to Heaven, and "the vast majority of people to go Hell".

[/quote]

Why do I not doubt this? Thankfully God is more patient than Mr. Voris give him credit for.

Quite frankly Ron, putting Mr. Voris' name in the mix does a great disservice to the others whome you have mentioned, especially someone as wonderfully lucid, patient and knowleagable as Msgr Pope.

-Tim-


#7

Ah, we managed to get about two weeks in without another thread on this time-bomb topic. :thumbsup: We’ll see the same old rhetoric, with many of the same posters, entering into the same disagreements. Does anyone ever get tired of this?

OP, do you want to do some searching? I can point you to at least two dozen threads with hundreds of posts if you really feel up to reading them all. Let me know.

Q. Are you the same Ron Conte of Catholic Planet?


#8

:thumbsup:

A chilling read, but I guarantee that this page of quotes will do nothing except make you into a better Catholic.

Here is one of the most powerful quotes that I have ever read on this subject that I believe every Catholic must read and meditate on:

The following narrative from Saint Vincent Ferrer … relates that an archdeacon in Lyons gave up his charge and retreated into a desert place to do penance, and that he died the same day and hour as Saint Bernard. After his death, he appeared to his bishop and said to him, 'Know, Monsignor, that at the very hour I passed away, thirty-three thousand people also died. Out of this number, Bernard and myself went up to heaven without delay, three went to purgatory, and all the others fell into Hell.’”

-St. Leonard of Port Maurice (source: olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml )

Isn’t this how we are supposed to approach our salvation? I mean, we’re dealing with eternity here… this life’s our only chance to get to heaven and we don’t get another kick at the can if we end up in hell. What these quotes teach us is that we truly must strive for 100% perfection in how we live our lives. I mean, who goes into an exam room only planning to answer 80% of the questions?? Why then do so many of us choose to live our lives this way?


#9

I wish Fr Barron was right but somehow his explanations on this point seen wishy washy. What keeps us from heaven? Mortal sin separating us from God. When you look around this world do you see:

  1. People who worship things other than God?
  2. People who dishonor their family members?
  3. People treating the name of God as if it is worthless?
  4. People stealing (like wasting time at work or overinflati by time requirements to make more money?)
  5. People harming others verbally, mentally, physically, through abortion and other forms of murder (suicide, euthanasia)
  6. Having unnatural sexual relations, being unfaithful to their husband or wife or indulging in pornography and masturbation?
  7. People trying to get more things? Wanting what others have?
  8. People being dishonest and lying in order to advance their own agenda?
    So these aren’t complete or in order, but I see a lot of the above and fewer holy persons living their life to know, love and serve God. We can be holy and Jesus told us to repent and sin no more.
    If sin doesn’t separate us from God and we all magically make it to heaven, then why did Jesus put so much effort into our redemption?
    Pray very very hard and stay very close to Jesus. Love others and live such holy lives that even te pagans will see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

#10

144,000 give or take


#11

Jesus said “the road to eternal life is narrow and rocky and few there are that find it”.

“Few” can never be a majority!

Either you believe Jesus or you don’t!


#12

We must always interpret Scripture in the light of the whole Faith. The few may refer to the few who go directly to Heaven after death, as opposed to the very many who go to Heaven via Purgatory, and the many who go to Hell.

Also, Jesus is specifically talking about “the road to eternal life”, so the few are those who follow the path marked out by Christ and stay on that straight and narrow road. Then there are the very many who obtain Heaven by the great mercy of God, despite a life of wandering from the path.

See Mt 21:31-32 – prostitutes and tax collectors (for the occupying Roman invaders of Israel) were able to enter Heaven.

See Mt 8:10-11 – a Roman centurion has greater faith than most Israelites, and “many” will join Abraham in heaven.

As for the various quotes from Saints, should not quotes from a Pope who has been beatified be considered alongside those ancient opinions? Pope John Paul II taught the universal salvific will of God, and that even some who outwardly reject the Church can be saved by being implicitly a member of the Church. All Salvation Comes through Christ


#13

In the spirit of full disclosure - let’s give everyone on your list an opportunity to be heard:

The Fight Over Hell

~Liza


#14

This has been debunked on CAF a number of times now, but there will come a poster like yourself to spread an unverifiable vision from an “unknown ARCH-deacon” who is not even a priest, who has not been canonized, nor whose vision has been held up by the Church to be authentic. It is all hearsay. One part says he appeared to his bishop, yet he addresses him as “Monsignor.” This is absolute nonsense. There is no way to substantiate that vision as being truthful and sent by God.


#15

[quote="fhansen, post:10, topic:308050"]
144,000 give or take

[/quote]

:rotfl: :thumbsup:


#16

[quote="lizaanne, post:13, topic:308050"]
In the spirit of full disclosure - let's give everyone on your list an opportunity to be heard:
~Liza

[/quote]

Is the link saying anything different from Ron Conte's post? I seriously doubt it.


#17

[quote="Ron_Conte, post:1, topic:308050"]
Fr. Barron thinks that very few go to Hell.

Michael Voris says that very few go to Heaven, and "the vast majority of people to go Hell".

Ralph Martin has an intermediate opinion, many go to Hell but most are saved.

Monsignor Charles Pope agrees with Martin and disagrees with Fr. Barron.
blog.adw.org/2012/12/hurts-and-hopes-regarding-the-recent-debates-on-hell/

My opinion is that many souls die unrepentant from actual mortal sin, and are sent to Hell. The majority of persons die in a state of grace and go to Heaven by way of Purgatory. Very few persons die and go straight to Heaven.

[/quote]

I think your opinion is reasonable, recognizing any opinion from us is just that, an opinion. But given scripture and Church teaching, and considering the evil that is in the world, fornication, adultery, abortion, divorce and remarriage (without annulment), etc etc, how many people are prepared to die right this moment? No chance to even think. No chance to prepare. Scripture clearly says, if one dies in mortal sin, they will not inherit heaven. Purgatory isn't an option, or second chance. They will not go to heaven.


#18

[quote="AT_Cross, post:9, topic:308050"]
I wish Fr Barron was right but somehow his explanations on this point seen wishy washy. What keeps us from heaven? Mortal sin separating us from God. When you look around this world do you see:
1. People who worship things other than God?
2. People who dishonor their family members?
3. People treating the name of God as if it is worthless?
4. People stealing (like wasting time at work or overinflati by time requirements to make more money?)
5. People harming others verbally, mentally, physically, through abortion and other forms of murder (suicide, euthanasia)
6. Having unnatural sexual relations, being unfaithful to their husband or wife or indulging in pornography and masturbation?
7. People trying to get more things? Wanting what others have?
8. People being dishonest and lying in order to advance their own agenda?
So these aren't complete or in order, but I see a lot of the above and fewer holy persons living their life to know, love and serve God. We can be holy and Jesus told us to repent and sin no more.
If sin doesn't separate us from God and we all magically make it to heaven, then why did Jesus put so much effort into our redemption?

[/quote]

Exactly.

If everyone makes it to heaven, why all the warnings about hell in scripture? That would be a needless scare tactic, and I really don't think God scares us needlessly.


#19

We need to be careful not to destroy the hope (a theological virtue) of anyone by browbeating them with the horrors of hell, rather than incline them to love of God and virtuous living. Does fear have the impetus for goodness? Never!

The gospel (GOOD NEWS!) was not brought to the multitudes by the apostles and missionary saints by such a method, and it should not be something we should embrace either.

The concept of only 5 out of 30,000 being saved that is promoted in some of these threads, is certainly not going to move anyone to faith, and may destroy the bruised reed and snuff out the flickering flame altogether. If ever the devil had an open door, he will succeed in removing all hope of heaven from their minds.

I saw on EWTN this week a brief clip noting that the Divine Mercy sisters spend 24-hour adoration praying for the dying. Each Hail Mary we pray also asks Mary to pray for us [plural] "sinners" at the hour of our death. We never know the vast effect of such prayers, even though, as St. Faustina wrote, there is no outward evidence in these sous when they pass.


#20

[quote="Sirach2, post:19, topic:308050"]
We need to be careful not to destroy the hope (a theological virtue) of anyone by browbeating them with the horrors of hell, rather than incline them to love of God and virtuous living. Does fear have the impetus for goodness? Never!

The gospel (GOOD NEWS!) was not brought to the multitudes by the apostles and missionary saints by such a method, and it should not be something we should embrace either.

The concept of only 5 out of 30,000 being saved that is promoted in some of these threads, is certainly not going to move anyone to faith, and may destroy the bruised reed and snuff out the flickering flame altogether. If ever the devil had an open door, he will succeed in removing all hope of heaven from their minds.

I saw on EWTN this week a brief clip noting that the Divine Mercy sisters spend 24-hour adoration praying for the dying. Each Hail Mary we pray also asks Mary to pray for us [plural] "sinners" at the hour of our death. We never know the vast effect of such prayers, even though, as St. Faustina wrote, there is no outward evidence in these sous when they pass.

[/quote]

Beautiful post. While none of us know the number, I think we can know that in trying to speculate the number of the saved, we could scare away a well meaning soul seeking the truth. God has his plan and it is our job to follow it so we can be counted among the saved. The number could be few, it could be many, but we have to work out our own salvation before we contemplate the number of others.

+AMDG+

-AA


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