How much of the Old Testament is actually historical?


I am going to copy and paste all sight interactions between Moses and God here.

3.2 The angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame blazing from the middle of a bush. Moses looked; there was the bush blazing, but the bush was not being burnt up.
3:3 Moses said, 'I must go across and see this strange sight, and why the bush is not being burnt up.'
3:4 When Yahweh saw him going across to look, God called to him from the middle of the bush. ‘Moses, Moses!’ he said. ‘Here I am,’ he answered.
3:5 ‘Come no nearer,’ he said. ‘Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.
3:6 I am the God of your ancestors,’ he said, ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.’ At this Moses covered his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

Ok here. God talks to Moses from the middle of a burning bush. Moses covers his face and listens …


4:24 On the journey, when he had halted for the night, Yahweh encountered him and tried to kill him.

6:29 Yahweh said to Moses, 'Tell Pharaoh king of Egypt everything that I am going to say to you.'
6:30 But Moses said to Yahweh’s face, ‘I am a poor speaker, so why should Pharaoh take any notice of me?’

13:21 Yahweh preceded them, by day in a pillar of cloud to show them the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could march by day and by night.
13:22 The pillar of cloud never left its place ahead of the people during the day, nor the pillar of fire during the night.

14:19 Then the angel of God, who preceded the army of Israel, changed station and followed behind them. The pillar of cloud moved from their front and took position behind them.
14:20 It came between the army of the Egyptians and the army of Israel. The cloud was dark, and the night passed without the one drawing any closer to the other the whole night long.

14:24 In the morning watch, Yahweh looked down on the army of the Egyptians from the pillar of fire and cloud and threw the Egyptian army into confusion.

16:10 As Aaron was speaking to the whole community of Israelites, they turned towards the desert, and there the glory of Yahweh appeared in the cloud.
16:11 Yahweh then spoke to Moses and said,

19:9 Yahweh then said to Moses, ‘Look, I shall come to you in a dense cloud so that the people will hear when I speak to you and believe you ever after.’ Moses then told Yahweh what the people had said.

19:18 Mount Sinai was entirely wrapped in smoke, because Yahweh had descended on it in the form of fire. The smoke rose like smoke from a furnace and the whole mountain shook violently

19:21 Yahweh then said to Moses, 'Go down and warn the people not to break through to look at Yahweh, or many of them will perish

20:21 So the people kept their distance while Moses approached the dark cloud where God was

24:1 He then said to Moses, ‘Come up to Yahweh, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel and bow down at a distance.
24:2 Moses alone will approach Yahweh; the others will not approach, nor will the people come up with him.’

24:9 Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and seventy elders of Israel then went up,
24:10 and they saw the God of Israel beneath whose feet there was what looked like a sapphire pavement pure as the heavens themselves,
24:11 but he did no harm to the Israelite notables; they actually gazed on God and then ate and drank.

24:16 The glory of Yahweh rested on Mount Sinai and the cloud covered it for six days. On the seventh day Yahweh called to Moses from inside the cloud.
24:17 To the watching Israelites, the glory of Yahweh looked like a devouring fire on the mountain top.
24:18 Moses went right into the cloud and went on up the mountain. Moses stayed on the mountain for forty days and forty nights


Hi! Im on the iPad now but off the top of my head Hebrews 2:2 mentions this. Please try to understand what I’m saying below as this topic treads on the ‘big deception’ of our times which is why this topic is so criticaly important when considering our modern times, our language, and where we live.

The language around these verses are divinely confusing as a safeguard for those who know the truth (among other things). So they really need to be paraphrased for meaning. Things are not what they seem or sound-like with some very important subject matter. Its like saying ‘salvation is from the Jews’ which obviously false. That’s not where salvation comes from so the issue is either a divine mistranslation, or our understanding, or BOTH (most typical).

Those who believe that particular statement are being deceived into placing their Hope (trust) of salvation in their own ego via a sentence written in a book, RATHER than our living Church and Faith (which is NOT based on a book!). Hebrews 2 EXPLAINS this very scenario! However, because the topic suggests holding Tradition as MORE IMORTANT than a written word, you will find a lot of ‘DIVINE’ mistranslations in the English language Bibles. If Anabaptists believe in another God (which I believe they do), then they will indeed INSERT ‘God’ into the ENGLISH translation where it doesnt exist otherwise. Anabaptists mostly speak English and are in America among us.

Hebrews 2:1 says that compared to the OT (Heb 1 refers to this greater context) we need to MORE DILIGENTLY OBSERVE, PRESERVE, and give MORE PREFERENCE to what Christ told them (because God is speaking to them directly so there’s no longer a ‘signal to noise ratio’ involved).
Hebrews 2:2 says that ANGELS spoke the Law to Moses and that every promise of PUNISHMENT for violating the Law came true just as they said.
Hebrews 2:3 says thst it would be unthinkable to trade-in our ENORMOUS GRACE of Salvation considering it was promised from God’s mouth directly (via Jesus Christ AND an entrusted succession of witnesses lending to tradition being at least AS important as Scripture.

Now this also demonstrates a reason why ‘Jehovah’s witnesses’ and Anabaptists are NOT Christian - because they took on Judaism’s religion of ANGELS, where they claim that their witness of Gods Word handed down by MOSES as their witness - NOT Jesus Christ directly. You’ll see when I post the other verses.

We Catholics have CHRIST (and the Pope in my opinion) as our witness - NOT Moses. This is what makes us authentically unique and the True Church. The other ‘Recognized schismatic Churches’ who have a foot in Rome, only have this grace because they are allowed to have the same witness as us via God’s good grace. Even if they dont realize or recognize it.

. like . then from punishments promised by Moses from the Mouth of Angels, Angels. imagine what would happen to us if we traded in our ENORMOUS GRACE



33:11 Yahweh would talk to Moses face to face, as a man talks to his friend, and afterwards he would come back to the camp, but the young man who was his servant, Joshua son of Nun, never left the inside of the Tent.

33:17 Yahweh then said to Moses, 'Again I shall do what you have asked, because you enjoy my favour and because I know you by name.'
33:18 He then said, 'Please show me your glory.'
33:19 Yahweh said, ‘I shall make all my goodness pass before you, and before you I shall pronounce the name Yahweh; and I am gracious to those to whom I am gracious and I take pity on those on whom I take pity.
33:20 But my face’, he said, 'you cannot see, for no human being can see me and survive.'
33:21 Then Yahweh said, ‘Here is a place near me. You will stand on the rock,
33:22 and when my glory passes by, I shall put you in a cleft of the rock and shield you with my hand until I have gone past.
33:23 Then I shall take my hand away and you will see my back; but my face will not be seen.’

Reading these Bible verses over the three posts we read how God is talking to and guiding Moses.

In the Bible verses in this post , a God is pretty clear. If Moses were to look at the face of God, Moses would not survive. God protects Moses from this.

This is pretty clear. What was your confusion @SnoopSword


Who is deceiving whom?


I’m telling you 100% that isnt true and that our Church doesnt believe that. Check what the NT says about people that have seen God, Re-read those verses with humor and satire in mind. Much of them are like riddles. The OT serves us as type-shadows of things to come. Actually, the biggest issue with this is probably the traditionally accepted and taught atonment theory is completely messed up if Moses spoke directly to God but thats another post.

More seriously though, if you believe Moses spoke directly to God, you indirectly accuse Mary of being a sinner and at that point Jesus isnt God and is born of Sin. Someone here surely knows this pitfall. I know the devil’s tactics very well. I spent years debating with them and now see why they insisit on dogmas that the Church or Jesus never claim. This is one of those things. No one, no where, not the Church or Jesus said ‘I must believe every line of scripture as a historicsl fact’.

Heres how the OT should be treated much of the time.

Q: Did Moses speak directly to God?

A: Yes and No. In REALITY the answer is ‘Yes’. In TRUTH (ie: factually) the answer is ‘no’.

-If REALITY is answered as ‘Yes’, this automatically makes it a truth. But only a TYPE of truth which needs to be clarified. If everyone thinks 2+2=5 then it really is a type of truth (to an extent)
-What really matters is the FACTUAL Truth that you keep in your heart (Luke… 2:19?) which is the actual truth. Not all humans have the ability to DISCERN actual truth (my opinion). I believe that only those who have been baptized have the ability/potential to perceive/discern the actual truth. I base this on life experience, doctrines, teachings. Much of why Christ came is so we can have our priests and baptism so we can finally discern Truth. Why do you think Anabaptists were cast out of Europe? This was their concern.

Q: How can this be?

A: In REALITY those Jews trying to kill and accuse Jesus were children of Abraham. However, In TRUTH (factually) they were NOT as Jesus mentions ‘but if you were… u wouldn’t be trying to kil me’ (and sadly, this exact same deception is very alive part of todays modern reality that has claimed countless souls and caused much, MUCH bloodshed.) So I too do as Jesus did and just acknowledge the common secular beliefs as a reality.

Another example:

Q: Did historical tragedy called ‘The X’ really happen? Doesnt our society, tv, movies, and PIBLIC SCHOOLS teach this happened? Eye witnesses spoke at my school!

A: Sigh. Yes it’s true and it really happened - DESPITE whether it happened or not, the REALITY is it happened which makes it True.

So yes indeed all of the OT is true because it is comprised of divine realities that God wanted there. In Sacred Scriptures case, everything that false is MEANT to reveal a truth anyhow. Many truths actually.

But as Pilot said, what is Truth? Dont be like him.


did you read what God said and did for Moses in my last post. reading that , we can assume Moses sat in the company of God, but God was very careful not to have Moses see His glory. we can assume Moses got to the point , during their 50 years of talking, that Moses stopped hiding his head from God


@SnoopSword. read this entire post


Ad Hominem

Why you chose to cling to OTHER Rabbi’s is beyond me. It’s in CLEAR defiance and opposition to Our Lord Jesus who commands his followers to call nobody (else) Rabbi. Therefore, they have nothing to do with Christ and his followers as we have only one.

So how can I be the one deceived? If you chose to believe in their OUTSIDE claims regarding our own Faith and our own Lord and his Mother, then I’m not the one being deceived or trying to decieve you.

Or maybe you believe salvation comes through them? :wink:

Could that be it? Nah that couldnt be it. If I was deceived at one time to think the same, anyone could be.


I know all this about the face but cant you see the humor and hiw its illogical. The NT Adresses this stuff.

What if I said this is partially about the Shroud of Turin and an explanation of how the image got in it?


What are you talking about now? You said that this was a great deception. I want to know who you think is deceiving whom.

Here’s what you said,

So, please answer the question. Who is perpetrating this “big deception” on whom?


A likely excuse. Their problem is they don’t believe in miracles and the power of God - according to the doctrines of Scientism.


“It is as if from mysterious crack, no, it is not mysterious, from some crack the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God” - Paul VI, 1972.

“The Church’s worst enemy is her own traitors” - Pius XI.


See this is the problem. You believe in the True God of the Trinity described in John 1, is the same God that was described in the OT.

Exodus 24:9-10 Then Moses went up, also Aaron…and they SAW THE GOD OF ISRAEL.

Exodus 33:11 So the LORD SPOKE TO MOSES FACE TO FACE, as a MAN speaks to his friend.

Deuteronomy 34:10 But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like MOSES, WHOM THE LORD KNEW FACE TO FACE

Numbers 12:6-8 IF THERE IS A PROPHET AMONG YOU, I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a VISION; I speak to him in a DREAM. NOT SO with My servant Moses…I SPEAK WITH HIM FACE TO FACEHE SEES THE FORM OF THE LORD.


John 5:34,37 I say these things that you MIGHT BE SAVED. 37 And the FATHER HIMSELF… you have NEVER HEARD HIS VOICE at ANY TIME, nor SEEN HIS FORM. (diss on above verse lol!)

John 1:18 NO ONE has EVER SEEN GOD at ANY time. (implies your following a non-truth if you believe Num 12:8 rather than NT Truth)

1 Tim 6:15-16 the King of kings and Lord of lords… dwells in UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT, whom NO MAN HAS SEEN or CAN SEE

1 John 4:12 NO ONE has SEEN GOD at ANY TIME . If we LOVE ONE ANOTHER (NOT LAW), God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.

John 6:32 JESUS SAID to them, “I tell you FOR CERTAIN, MOSES DID NOT give you the BREAD from heaven, but My Father gives you the TRUE BREAD from heaven. (as opposed to false)

John 6:46 NOT ANYONE HAS SEEN the Father EXCEPT the one existing at God’s side; this one HAS SEEN the Father. (G3844 = ‘side’)

Gal 3:19-20 (good paraphrase) In fact, ANGELS GAVE THE LAW TO MOSES, and he gave it to the people. There is only ONE GOD, and the Law did NOT come directly from him.

Heb 2:2 the message announced through ANGELS [TO MOSES] proved true, and EVERY VIOLATION of the LAW and every act of disobedience was PUNISHED. (because the Law only promises a punishment, not life).

Acts 7:53-54 You received THE LAW as transmitted by ANGELS…When they heard this, they were INFURIATED, and they GROUND THEIR TEETH AT HIM. (lets hope this isn’t a prophecy-type for some in this thread!)

JOSEPHUS: “We have learned the noblest of OUR DOCTRINES and the HOLIEST of OUR LAWS [came to us] from THE ANGELS” -Josephus, Jewish Historian (70 AD)

2 Cor 3:13 UNLIKE MOSES, we have NOTHING TO HIDE. Everything is OUT IN THE OPEN with us. HE COVERED HIS FACE with a VEIL so the children of Israel WOULDN’T NOTICE that the glory was FADING AWAY —and they DIDN’T NOTICE. (yikes! read between the lines!)


Rom 4:15 For The Law ALWAYS BRINGS PUNISHMENT on those who TRY to obey it.

Rom 7:7 “I WOULD NOT HAVE KNOWN SIN except through The Law.

Gal 3:10 ALL who depend on works of THE LAW are UNDER A CURSE

Rom 7:13 The LAW makes you SINFUL BEYOND MEASURE


You sound like this deception doesn’t exist.

CCC:675 Before Christ’s second coming THE CHURCH must pass through a FINAL TRIAL that will SHAKE THE FAITH of MANY BELIEVERS

CCC:675 …a RELIGIOUS DECEPTION offering men an apparent SOLUTION to their [‘SPIRITUAL’] PROBLEMS at the price of APOSTASY FROM THE TRUTH. -(brackets added by me)

CCC:675 The SUPREME RELIGIOUS DECEPTION is that of the ANTICHRIST, a PSEUDO-MESSIANISM by which man glorifies himSELF [his ‘EGO’] IN PLACE of God AND of his Messiah come in the flesh. -(backets added by me)

Okay here is PROOF that this deception is real:

Anyone who ATTEMPTS TO DISCUSS IT on ANY major Christian web forum will be CENSORED - EVEN IF you are posting nothing but Scripture. Yes. We are in a time where your posts WILL GET DELETED if you post nothing but Scripture. Especially if you post in AGREEMENT of what the Church teaches, professes, and/or advocates.

So sure I would like to go into more detail and say more, but my posts would CERTAINLY GET DELETED. The reason is because people are WILLINGLY married to the lies of divine darkness. They are serving other Masters without knowing it or wanting to face it.

They bath in a bathtub of darkness that feels warm and nice. It’s like water, but without getting wet. Their soul recognizes it, so it feels comfort and safety in the lies of darkness. So they allow the father of lies to blind them.

They then DO THE WORKS of the enemy and PERFORM HIS BIDDING so the deception can NOT be discussed. After all, they don’t want to lose that nice waterless bath do they? So anyone that jeopardizes it will get dealt with quick. So I definitely wouldn’t try. And lol… funny thing is, it’s not anything regarding the Pope or even our Church. That would go UNPUNISHED lol.


This is as far as I have read.


Serious question.

You don’t believe God is God? Both Testaments?

You don’t believe in the Apostles Creed? We believe in One God, Creator Almighty?

If you don’t believe this, what religion are you? I just, wrongly, I guess, assumed you to be Catholic

If it’s ok , could you answer this without quoting and cut n paste. It confuses the answer , For me.

Let’s forget Moses for a minute.


BAck up Snoop, I asked you to provide Chapter and verse to support this claim.

Lets get that straight first then we can get into the big deception.


Definitely NOT because the True God does NOT live in, or come from books. This is the major difference between the True God I believe in, and the strange gods of Judaism, Freemasonry, Anabaptists, and Muslims

The Creeds are FAR MORE IMPORTANT to me than even Scripture itself. And The True God is most accurately summarized in our Creeds. Anyone who REJECTS them does NOT have the True God:

Jews - Reject the God of Creeds. Accept OT God. Reject God of John 1 (you see?)
Muslims - Reject the God of Creeds. Reject OT God. Accept God of John 1
Anabaptists - Reject the God of Creeds. Accept OT God. Accept God of John 1

Yes indeed these are hard teachings. Jesus came to clarify who the True God and LITERALLY bring Him to the world through the Sacraments among other things. ONLY those anointed men who wrote our Creeds had the ability to summarize the True God. NO NATURAL MAN can pick up the Bible and think he’ll Find the True God UNLESS he was anointed for this SPECIFIC task. But even then God and the angels would be guiding them.

I wouldn’t insist on all this if I didn’t spend years debating all sorts of people who believe in strange gods. I CAN TELL YOU they all share one thing in common - they were never baptized. So they believe in bizarre deities. And indeed our Bible is FILLED with strange gods.


Didn’t I already post all the verses?


This has a large amount of truth to it. :wink:

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