How Practical is it for Women to be Submissive to Their Husbands in Modern Society


#488

Using both indirect and direct communication are not mutually exclusive.

Obviously. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

This appeared last night, Australia time, and I didn’t want to start up again on this thread. Fortunately, this overly-serious response to my light-hearted remark has brought out some good stuff.


#489

Um, no it doesn’t. The problem is ubiquitous in that it touches everyone’s life at some point; it could be a family member, friend, co-worker. This is an area that I keep up on so I had to see if there was something wildly different statistically in Australia and Googled this. First, nothing different. Secondly, on the first page of links there were several that acknowledged abuse of men. Algorithms might contribute to my results so look for yourself.

Well, if it is abusive…it is abusive. Abuse isn’t just physical and to dismiss other types of abuse will allow mistreatment of women, men and children to perpetuate. Is it that difficult to look at these behaviors and acknowledge that there are healthier models of relationships and parenting?

As far as leaving: It takes an average 7 times for a victim/survivor to leave an abusive relationship. And leaving usually leaves women in more dire straights than a man. Men, unless they are under-employed due to CD or other issues, have way more earning potential. Leaving also has a variety of unexpected and unwanted social challenges. Family and friends who were once there to socialize with or help with the kids are no longer there. Those who leave do not leave without vacillating and second-guessing. And I can’t speak for advocates in Oz but in the US we don’t tell victims to leave (unless it’s a 911 situation). The victim’s sense of agency has been battered and advocates present options, resources, and basically listen and put the power back in the victim’s hands. Leaving can be deadly, it’s the most dangerous time for a victim, so advocates support the victim if she or he chooses to stay.

Maybe the law is that different there but a man actually being an abuser doesn’t leverage much at all unless there is someone like a GAL or investigator (assigned by the court) who are neutral and make recommendations to the judge or there is an open case with CPS. Even then the judge is bound by law and the law isn’t interested in anything that isn’t concrete.

I have to ask: When is it okay for a victim/survivor to leave? How bad does it have to get?


#490

Thankyou, sincerely, for your reply and well enunciated points.

Unfortunately, I do have to leave this, and CAF, for the day.

I’ll try to get back to it later, but it being realistic it may be more than 24 hours.

As a quick response, it looks to me that the societal approach to domestic violence is similar in both countries, but some specific laws differ.


#491

I look forward to reading your perspective.


#492

Thanks!

In the meantime, I might ask you, and anyone else, to consider whether my remark about the “vile lie” has derailed this thread too much, and should be taken elsewhere, when I get back to it.

My initial thought about the relevance of it is that, in my experience, the depiction of the “abusive” husband is lurking at the back of many discussions about marriage. So, it is relevant, but perhaps it’s time to drop it in this thread.


#493

Oh yea – I know what book you are talking about. I believe it was written by a Mormon. It is all out creepy – that it tells women to act “childlike”. It kinda gives off a pedo “vibe” – for a man to be attracted to “childlike” behavior in a woman.


#494

It’s a looong thread.

I think it’s not unfair to note that extreme wifely submission views are very attractive to abusers. It can sometimes feel like the desire to abuse and control women is the dog wagging the tail of traditional religion. The desire for abuse and control is so obviously primary for some people.


#495

Jeff Larson cartoon Wives submit graciously_thumb[2]


#496

I’ve seen some entertaining takes on Ephesians 5 from the Christian “Red Pill” people that sounded a lot like your cartoon.

They think husbands primarily lay down their lives by ordering people at home around–that’s the greatest sacrifice, apparently.

I don’t think St. Paul would be impressed with those people.


#497

People misuse the whole ‘dying for my wife’ thing a lot. No Carl, letting your wife watch her show is not it!

The frustration I feel and I’m sure many other women do too, is that women are also expected to love their husbands, and everyone else, the way Jesus loved us. And also, in most civilized cultures, there’s hardly an opportunity for a man to actually lay down his life. So they gotta come up with other stuff that fits this requirement, and most often than not, it’s things that people would already do for their loved ones anyway.


#499

Related:

An Oklahoma state senator plead guilty to child sex trafficking after being caught in a motel room with a 17-year-old boy who was reeking of marijuana. The state senator was caught wearing a t-shirt that said Ephesians 5:22 and “now go make me a sandwich.”

The whole thing was caught on a police body cam, including the lengthy period where the police were trying to talk the state senator into emerging from the locked motel room.

I guess this is another guy not clear on the concept?


#500

I think there is a danger of this thread discending into mocking other people’s choices.


#501

Like you did in the post you deleted?


#502

That’s a great question, one I’ve pondered upon for a while too.
Marriage shouldn’t be a struggle for power. That only distracts you from the things that are most important. I respect my husband as the head of the family but that doesn’t mean I cannot make decisions. We make them together. Sometimes, I make them when it concerns something I’m more experienced at. It’s hard accepting hierarchy in such a small unit as a family, especially if you’re supposed to be ‘one’. But I do think it’s in the Bible for a reason. No structure tends to work without hierarchy. The same goes for a (small) family unit. I think submission to your husband is an act that, however difficult, makes you grow as a wife and as a woman. We are given different sexes and we are fundamentally different. I think this traditional family dynamic helps us to discover the more female qualities in ourselves. When we are less preoccupied with making decisions and keeping order, we have more energy to take care of our family members. Our modern society has mashed up traditional patterns and it remains a struggle, especially for young families like ours, to find our rightful places as mother and father. But units with a clear structure just tend to function better. I guess keeping in mind a structure that has worked for ages, can at least help us to gradually restore society a bit, starting in our own homes.


#503

I’m not sure how possible it is to separate “making decisions and keeping order” from taking care of family members.

I think major family decisions should be shared, but there’s a lot of unavoidable minor stuff that most husbands don’t even want to hear about.


#504

You’re right about that. Like I said: we do tend to make decisions together. But I think it’s healthy and consistent if the husband should be the one voicing them, for mother and children. I like to consider my husband the voice of the ‘board of parents’. :slight_smile: If our son misbehaves, he should know there’s no use in trying to force a different decision out of me because ‘the board has spoken’ and that means my opinion about the matter has already been heard. :slight_smile: That in itself creates order.
I also think there is no ‘right’ way to do it. Obviously, the Bible does not deal with modern families. But I think that by at least having ourselves be inspired by those traditional structures, we could eventually work better as families. When I look at Catholic families with more experience in ‘family management’ (and bigger families) than us, they seem to do quite well and I don’t have the impression that the father forces his will on wife and children or that either mother or father seems more important than the other. They all seem to genuinely and mutually respect each other…


#505

I corrected my behavior almost immediately. My point wasn’t to mock but to try to point out that it is difficult to judge marriages from the outside. I realized it was not likely to be taken that way and I deleted it.

I apologize if you saw it and were upset.


#506

Six ‘likes’ for this crap, including from those who have most contributed against “headship”?

:rage::face_vomiting:

Myself and others arguing for “headship” have treated this as a serious topic, and also a volatile one, and have kept our responses informative and restrained, and have listened to the others. Where applicable, we have relied on scripture and Church teaching.

And now, to have our posts caricatured like this.

This also confirms my long suspicion that the caricature of the deadbeat, abusive husband is pervasive and influencing marriages and society.

Disgusting.

I see that all along you just wanted to win at any costs, and had no respect for the people you were debating.

BTW, @Lea101, several times you put out a request for “examples”. I treated it seriously, and went to some effort to answer it, and to open up further discussion on the topic. There was no response from you. Not even a “thanks”.

(With, apologies to Jamal, who may simply have been dropping in on the topic with a missplaced “joke”).


#507

Don’t take things so seriously. Cartoons can be used to some degree as weapons, as strategic means to win arguments, minds, or they can just be humor. This was the latter.

If you don’t want to give a “like” for it, then fine, be that way. :face_with_monocle:

This is not the battle of Waterloo.


#508

Please check my edit at the end, mate. :slight_smile:


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