How sufficient is the Scripture?


#1

Hey all. I was wondering if Catholics believe if the Scriptures contain all that is necessary for salvation. Help me out here.


#2

[quote=michaelp]Hey all. I was wondering if Catholics believe if the Scriptures contain all that is necessary for salvation. Help me out here.
[/quote]

What does scripture say?
Acts 8: 30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

It seems we need a teaching authority as well.

Peace in Christ…Salmon


#3

[quote=michaelp]Hey all. I was wondering if Catholics believe if the Scriptures contain all that is necessary for salvation. Help me out here.
[/quote]

Yehhhhh!Hooray:) :clapping: :dancing: :clapping: You should have added one more option,to whom much is given much is expected.Meaning, if someone doesn’t know they need to listen to directives of the Church as well they can’t be held culpable;) God Bless


#4

Scripture will not get you to heaven. A clean soul gets you to heaven.


#5

All of the Church’s teachigns are in Scripture, but I don’t think that their presence is always very clear, when studying scripture alone.

The Bible is an amazing book. I can look at it with different questions in my life, and find answers or at least guidance. But what I take form it as an individual is somehow influenced by the perspective with which I search.

The Church provides an invaluable service becuae its teachings are the consequence of having studied and interpreted scriptural teaching for 2000 years, on a myriad of topics from the perspective of many great minds. I would do myself a great disservice if I ignored it, because there is no way that my single feeble mind’s interpretations from one short life time would ever be able to come up with the breadth and depth of Scriptural teaching that the Church embodies,


#6

[quote=serendipity]All of the Church’s teachigns are in Scripture, but I don’t think that their presence is always very clear, when studying scripture alone.

The Bible is an amazing book. I can look at it with different questions in my life, and find answers or at least guidance. But what I take form it as an individual is somehow influenced by the perspective with which I search.

The Church provides an invaluable service becuae its teachings are the consequence of having studied and interpreted scriptural teaching for 2000 years, on a myriad of topics from the perspective of many great minds. I would do myself a great disservice if I ignored it, because there is no way that my single feeble mind’s interpretations from one short life time would ever be able to come up with the breadth and depth of Scriptural teaching that the Church embodies,
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:thumbsup: :yup: :clapping: :dancing: :bounce: :amen:


#7

Where We Got the Bible by Henry Graham is a great book that explains quite a bit about the subject.

I think it was Thomas Aquinas who said that dogma is nothing other than the infallible interpretation of scripture. I don’t know about that…you have to question his motives for saying it and to whom he was speaking. But anyway…it seems that the books and letters of scripture were written for particular reasons and in different circumstances. The (human) authors of the Bible had no idea that that these books and letters would be gathered into one book. The Church says that Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition flow from one source and are treated with equal sentiments of reverence, but the Church also says that the Bible is itself a manifestation of the process of living Tradition. So it seems to me that Tradition precedes Scripture.
Jamie


#8

Is there any official teaching concerning this or is it open to interpretation?

For those of you who say that there are essential elements that are not contained in Scripure that are necessary for salvation, what are some examples?

Thank you all, by the way for helping me.

Michael


#9

Michael,

Several dogmas and doctrines of our Faith are not contained within scripture. It isn’t that scripture *opposes *these teachings; it’s just that scripture does not explicitly teach them. Sometimes they are implied and sometimes they are not.

Some examples:
The dogmas of the Assumption of Mary and the coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven–these are not stated within scripture. In the book of Revelation John speaks of “the woman clothed with the sun…” which refers to Mary as well as the Church. Implied is Mary’s exaltation, but nowhere do we get any indication of such magnificent dogmas.

Purgatory–although there are some references to prayer for the dead and similar things in one of the books of Maccabees (the second I believe), which protestants do not accept as infallible, there really is no indication in scripture of the dogma of purgatory.

The Trinity!–although the Trinity is implied throughout the scriptures, it is never explicitly taught by the (human) authors.

Here are just some examples of dogmas and doctrines of the Church that are not explicitly taught in the Bible. In my opinion, Catholics make a mistake by telling protestants that scripture indeed teaches these things. That’s really the wrong approach.

Our Church teaches us that there are two sources of divine revelation, not one. There are Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. These are to be interpreted authentically by the magisterium of the Catholic Church (Her teaching authority). Scripture never tells us that scripture is the *only *source of divine revelation. Paul tells Christians to “hold fast to the traditions you have received from us [the apostles] either by word of mouth or by letter.” I believe that’s 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

The books and letters of Scripture were never meant be a complete explication of Christian doctrine; they arose out of specific circumstance and were written for specific purposes to specific people. Our Church teaches that Sacred Scripture is itself a manifestation of the process of living Tradition–the passing down from generation to generation of the truths of the Faith. Thus, Tradition precedes Scripture. Not that Tradition ought to be treated with more reverence or devotion than scripture, but only that scripture is a visible icon of the Church’s Tradition.

Jamie


#10

P.S. The Church teaches against the sufficiency of Sacred Scripture in the sense that it is all we need. Scripture is *not *all that is necessary. Like I said, it is one source of divine revelation, and the other source is Sacred Tradition, both of which flow from one single source. If someone calls themselves a Catholic they must believe this and must believe in the various dogmas that the Church teaches: the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception, purgatory, the Trinity, the communion of saints, and so on.

You see, once we see that it is not all about scripture, that Tradition is so integral to our understanding of Christianity, then we can accept these dogmas with relative ease.

Jamie


#11

[quote=nohself]P.S. The Church teaches against the sufficiency of Sacred Scripture in the sense that it is all we need. Scripture is *not *all that is necessary. Like I said, it is one source of divine revelation, and the other source is Sacred Tradition, both of which flow from one single source. If someone calls themselves a Catholic they must believe this and must believe in the various dogmas that the Church teaches: the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception, purgatory, the Trinity, the communion of saints, and so on.

You see, once we see that it is not all about scripture, that Tradition is so integral to our understanding of Christianity, then we can accept these dogmas with relative ease.

Jamie
[/quote]

Thanks Jamie,

I do understand all of this very well. My question is not whether or not Scripture contains everything, but whether it contains everything sufficient for salavtion. In other words, are there essential issues, teaching, or practices that Scripture does not mention that are necessary for salvation. Or, does the Scripture contain all that is essential for salvation? If it does not, what is left out that Scripture does not teach that is essential for salvation?

Has the Catholic Church made any official declarations concerning the material sufficiency of Scripture? The reason I ask is because there does not seem to be a concensus on this forum about it, so I am a little confused.

Michael


#12

Scripture is not an entity separte from tradition. The accepted traditions are based on interpretations of Scripture. And before the Bible was disseminated as *the *source for scripture, tradition taught what would later be accepted as the Bible. I don’t see this as necessarily an either or question. The two are not neatly separated.


#13

[quote=serendipity]Scripture is not an entity separte from tradition. The accepted traditions are based on interpretations of Scripture. And before the Bible was disseminated as *the *source for scripture, tradition taught what would later be accepted as the Bible. I don’t see this as necessarily an either or question. The two are not neatly separated.
[/quote]

I’m sorry, but this is not true. You are correct in that scripture is not entirely separate from Tradition, as they flow from one single source. But that “the accepted traditions are based on interpretations of scripture” and that “before the Bible was disseminated as the source for scripture, tradition taught what would later be accepted as the Bible” are just not true.

For instance, the Assumption of Mary into heaven was a belief that arose completely out of the sphere of scripture. It arose by word of mouth from the fact that Mary’s tomb was empty after she died. Something else apparently happened too…I can’t remember.

To say that tradition was somehow an intermediary between the age of Christ and the collection of the books into the canon of the Bible is incorrect.

Michael, I fully understand your question now. I’m going to look it up. I do remember reading Aquinas say something like, “As for spiritual reading the Bible is sufficient.” But I don’t know what his general stance on the sufficiency of the Bible for salvation was. And I don’t know what the Church’s is, if there is one. When the Church does not say something about a particular subject we have to look to the Church fathers. But I’m gonna look it up.

Jamie


#14

The Catholic Church teaches both scripture and tradition. The bible is a book written by the Church and it was compiled by the Church. It does not contain everything.


#15

Scripture does not say all that is necessary for Salvation -

First and foremost - the Table of Contents is not part of any one book of the Bible. The table of contents is NOT “Scripture”.

Ken


#16

catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

Great page.

Ironically, Sacred Scripture is not absolutely necessary at all for salvation. It seems that some aspect of Tradition handed down to someone personally is probably more profitable than scripture. But that’s a judgment call. Bottom line, it seems that some knowledge of Tradition is more *vital *than scripture because Tradition really encompasses the truths taught by scripture plus more that scripture does not teach. As for official Church teaching on this specific subject, it doesn’t seem like there is any. I would assume because this is such a subjective thing.

Jamie


#17

[quote=nohself]catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp

Great page.

Ironically, Sacred Scripture is not absolutely necessary at all for salvation. It seems that some aspect of Tradition handed down to someone personally is probably more profitable than scripture. But that’s a judgment call. Bottom line, it seems that some knowledge of Tradition is more *vital *than scripture because Tradition really encompasses the truths taught by scripture plus more that scripture does not teach. As for official Church teaching on this specific subject, it doesn’t seem like there is any. I would assume because this is such a subjective thing.

Jamie
[/quote]

Thanks agian Jamie,

It does not seem to be such a subjective thing though. Over 300 million people believe in Scripture alone.

So what you are saying is this:

According to the Catholic Church . . .

Is the content of Tradition alone sufficient for salvation? Yes
Is the content of Scripture alone sufficient for salvation? Don’t know yet.

Thanks agian,
Michael


#18

[quote=michaelp]Thanks agian Jamie,

It does not seem to be such a subjective thing though. Over 300 million people believe in Scripture alone.

So what you are saying is this:

According to the Catholic Church . . .

Is the content of Tradition alone sufficient for salvation? Yes
Is the content of Scripture alone sufficient for salvation? Don’t know yet.

Thanks agian,
Michael
[/quote]

Hello, Michael:) There are over a billion Catholics;) According to the Catholic Church scripture came from tradition with a capial T.But really,as far as Salvation and knowledge of Scripture,I think the real necessary thing is to Know,Love and serve the Author of scripture and the Head of the Church.The Bible in itself has no salvific power,the devil knows scripture:nope: Jesus on the other hand:bowdown2: God Bless


#19

[quote=michaelp]Thanks agian Jamie,

It does not seem to be such a subjective thing though. Over 300 million people believe in Scripture alone.

So what you are saying is this:

According to the Catholic Church . . .

Is the content of Tradition alone sufficient for salvation? Yes
Is the content of Scripture alone sufficient for salvation? Don’t know yet.

Thanks agian,
Michael
[/quote]

The content of Tradition alone certainly can be sufficient for salvation, so long as one adheres to it and puts it into practice.
The content of scripture alone is probably not sufficient for salvation. But really, I don’t think anyone knows that for sure.

I like the last person’s comments…Lisa. She said, “I think the real necessary thing is to Know,Love and serve the Author of scripture and the Head of the Church.The Bible in itself has no salvific power.”

The whole “alone” thing doesn’t seem to be relevant. The only thing that alone is definitely sufficient for salvation is the Word of God. Sola verbum Dei…“The Word of God alone.”

Jamie


#20

[quote=Lisa4Catholics]Hello, Michael:) There are over a billion Catholics;) According to the Catholic Church scripture came from tradition with a capial T.But really,as far as Salvation and knowledge of Scripture,I think the real necessary thing is to Know,Love and serve the Author of scripture and the Head of the Church.The Bible in itself has no salvific power,the devil knows scripture:nope: Jesus on the other hand:bowdown2: God Bless
[/quote]

Hey Lisa.

I agree that the Bible does not have any salvific power, but its message does. Do you think that the message of the Bible alone is sufficient for salvation? Or do you think that it is lacking in something?


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