How to define "having sex"


#1

Hi!
I know one must not have sex before marrage but where goes the line?
Can I call something “just” kissing and hugging?
If I sleep with my fiance holding my arm around her?
What about excessive hugging and touchig of eachother?
Is there a difference whether we are dressed or not?

I love her very dearly and I want to be as close to her as possible and make her feel as good as possible. When married we would very much like to have children.
We both agree that we should have no sex before we get married but I’m doubtful of wheather we might have still done so…
Yet we have had no intercourse that could lead to having children (with or without contraceptions) and we have used no contraceptions for there has been no need for them.

help

Allan


#2

As far as I have researched, one should refrain from anything other than kissing before marriage. No sexual touching, no nakedness, no sleeping in the same bed, etc. Look at chastity.com, it’s was really helpful for me.


#3

If it's something you have to use semantics to try to justify doing before marriage, it's probably not something you should be doing. There are many very sexual things besides intercourse that would be inappropriate for non-married couples to do. For instance, being naked in bed with your hands all over each other isn't intercourse, but it's definitely not okay! It's far too sexual and far too close to actual intercourse, and it will lead to temptation.

If you want to stay chaste, keep your clothes on and keep out of the bed!


#4

if you have to play games with words to justify what you want to do, it is probably over the line. The sex act and foreplay that ordinarily leads to sex are forbidden outside marriage. Keep your clothes on and fastened properly, keep your hands where they belong, and stay out of bed, with or without clothing. If you are ready for marriage, get married. If you are not, chill.


#5

Yes, this one confused me a lot as a teen. When did sex begin?

Well, you're missing the point. Its not about sex being evil. Its about recognizing what marriage is, what dating is not and where sexuality fits into this.

First, its important to recognize that fertility is an innate part of sexuality. Sexuality is the means by which new human life is created. To seek to express ourselves sexually in ways that reduce sexuality to a mere seeking of pleasure or the lust for merely intimacy (to the exclusion of an open acceptence of the gift of our fertility) is immoral.

In marriage, this lust expresses itself in our drive to contracept or to approach NFP with the contraceptive mentality.

In dating, we are in a situation where we have not fully committed to each other. Our desire to avoid pregnancy is always a legitimate one. We don't have to discern our motivations to avoid pregnancy. As such, our sexual drives in a dating relationship always aim us in a direction of satisfying lust -- that is pursuing only the pleasure and emotional intimacy independant of the procreative aspects.

The other part we have difficulty in when dating is our tendency to treat dating as if it were a lower form of marriage. Dating's soul purpose is to help us avoid rushing into bad marriages. It is a process by which we actually should be putting a leash on our heart, because our hearts are like hyper puppies who want to chase after every interesting smell. Dating always involves not only a holding back physically, but a holding back emotionally as well. Now, that doesn't mean being completely closed and cold to the other person. It means rather that we need to allow our relationships to develop slowly. We need to enjoy casual small talk for a bit longer than we want. It means keeping things casual and fun rather than hot and heavy with tons of emotions.

What is appropriate to a newly forming dating relationship is different than what is appropriate for an engaged couple a week away from their wedding. Does that mean that the couple a week away from their wedding finds chastity easier because they're able to express more than when they first started dating. No. Sometimes it can be harder for the engaged couple and they may need to give up legimate expressions of affection because those expressions have become a near occassion of sin.

My point is, that if you're dating, there shouldn't be even talk about "when we get married." It shouldn't be a period of trying to strive to see how long you can keep your relationship going with a lesser form of commitment. Dating for several years isn't a sign that you'll have a happier and healthier marriage because you've already made your relationship last for "this long" as well. The success of your marriage is going to be more based on the character of yourself and the person you are with, and dating is a method to hold your heart a bit back as you get to know the character of the other person and discern whether that person is worthy of receiving your heart, or in reality of receiving you.

That's the thing about marriage. Its not some formal ritual to bless an already begun relationship. It is you giving your complete self to another person and accepting the complete self of the other person. You don't belong to each other until you're married. Its important not to cut yourself into little pieces handing those peices to people simply because you're puppy-dog heart is jumping all over the person, licking them all over, and wagging its tail.

Waiting for sex for marriage is just part of the equation. Don't turn this thing into a hostility toward our sexual natures. Strive to see the bigger picture so you can better examine your conscience and follow the heart of the law (which can be more restrictive) than the letter of the law (which our sinful nature will always try to bend over technicalities).


#6

Beautifully said, 2 Angels!!


#7

If you sleep, undressed, with your fiance, holding your arm around her, then you will be able to define, “having sex.”

I think you already know this, but you are seeking an excuse to do it anyway.


#8

[quote="Magickman, post:7, topic:226586"]
If you sleep, undressed, with your fiance, holding your arm around her, then you will be able to define, "having sex."

I think you already know this, but you are seeking an excuse to do it anyway.

[/quote]

I don't think that is necessarily the case. When I was a teen, I was very adament about waiting for marriage. Truth be told though, I didn't understand a whole lot about sexuality. I couldn't understand at all why sleeping in the same bed with my boyfriend would be any different than sleeping in the same bed with my brother. I thought it had to be a total matter of conviction. Why would I change my mind? Didn't my parents trust me that I was convicted about waiting? Every time it was explained to me, it started sounding more like there was a point where you'd accidently have sex -- that if you went too far, you'd lose your free will and accidently have sex.

But no one told me where sex began. I was way too niave to identify near occassions of sins, and when I started making mistakes, I was very upset over all evasive every adult had been about explaining how to wait for marriage. I mean if I had to monitor myself like at any moment I'd go insane, what signs was I to look for? How was I to be chaste without learning after the fact? How was I to protect myself from my own ignorance and niaivity?

I was also offended when adults would try to gear this in "You already know the answer" as if "You're faking how innocent you are. We all know how bad you are and that you don't have good intentions."

I really think such questions should be treated as legimate questions. Kids shouldn't be afraid of asking them.


#9

As a practical answer, a good question to keep in mind when showing affection to a girlfriend or boyfriend is: *would I feel okay doing this action if all of our parents were in the room. *? Usually the point at which you would not feel comfortable with your parents looking on is where you should stop.


#10

[quote="MercyMia, post:9, topic:226586"]
As a practical answer, a good question to keep in mind when showing affection to a girlfriend or boyfriend is: *would I feel okay doing this action if all of our parents were in the room. *? Usually the point at which you would not feel comfortable with your parents looking on is where you should stop.

[/quote]

I wouldn't be so keen to use that definition. Many people are not comfortable talking about many things in front of their parents but talk about it with their friends. (and I'm not just talking about sexuality here...)
It's a matter of how expressive a person is or isn't.
There are some things I would consider going too far: Genital touch, rubbing each other, and anything that involves being naked in front of her while being alone. (I say being alone because there are some abnormal situations where you may end up seeing more than you'd expect to).
Some kinds of kissing may be going too far... I'm not exactly sure how to define things there. It would have to be in a case by case situation.

Hugs,
Daniel


#11

Thank you all for your answers.

Sincerely,
A


#12

If, after you are married, you wouldn’t mind her doing it with another man, then it’s okay to do now.


#13

[quote="twoangels, post:5, topic:226586"]
Yes, this one confused me a lot as a teen. When did sex begin?

Well, you're missing the point. Its not about sex being evil. Its about recognizing what marriage is, what dating is not and where sexuality fits into this.

First, its important to recognize that fertility is an innate part of sexuality. Sexuality is the means by which new human life is created. To seek to express ourselves sexually in ways that reduce sexuality to a mere seeking of pleasure or the lust for merely intimacy (to the exclusion of an open acceptence of the gift of our fertility) is immoral.

In marriage, this lust expresses itself in our drive to contracept or to approach NFP with the contraceptive mentality.

In dating, we are in a situation where we have not fully committed to each other. Our desire to avoid pregnancy is always a legitimate one. We don't have to discern our motivations to avoid pregnancy. As such, our sexual drives in a dating relationship always aim us in a direction of satisfying lust -- that is pursuing only the pleasure and emotional intimacy independant of the procreative aspects.

The other part we have difficulty in when dating is our tendency to treat dating as if it were a lower form of marriage. Dating's soul purpose is to help us avoid rushing into bad marriages. It is a process by which we actually should be putting a leash on our heart, because our hearts are like hyper puppies who want to chase after every interesting smell. Dating always involves not only a holding back physically, but a holding back emotionally as well. Now, that doesn't mean being completely closed and cold to the other person. It means rather that we need to allow our relationships to develop slowly. We need to enjoy casual small talk for a bit longer than we want. It means keeping things casual and fun rather than hot and heavy with tons of emotions.

What is appropriate to a newly forming dating relationship is different than what is appropriate for an engaged couple a week away from their wedding. Does that mean that the couple a week away from their wedding finds chastity easier because they're able to express more than when they first started dating. No. Sometimes it can be harder for the engaged couple and they may need to give up legimate expressions of affection because those expressions have become a near occassion of sin.

My point is, that if you're dating, there shouldn't be even talk about "when we get married." It shouldn't be a period of trying to strive to see how long you can keep your relationship going with a lesser form of commitment. Dating for several years isn't a sign that you'll have a happier and healthier marriage because you've already made your relationship last for "this long" as well. The success of your marriage is going to be more based on the character of yourself and the person you are with, and dating is a method to hold your heart a bit back as you get to know the character of the other person and discern whether that person is worthy of receiving your heart, or in reality of receiving you.

That's the thing about marriage. Its not some formal ritual to bless an already begun relationship. It is you giving your complete self to another person and accepting the complete self of the other person. You don't belong to each other until you're married. Its important not to cut yourself into little pieces handing those peices to people simply because you're puppy-dog heart is jumping all over the person, licking them all over, and wagging its tail.

Waiting for sex for marriage is just part of the equation. Don't turn this thing into a hostility toward our sexual natures. Strive to see the bigger picture so you can better examine your conscience and follow the heart of the law (which can be more restrictive) than the letter of the law (which our sinful nature will always try to bend over technicalities).

[/quote]

Well said!!!!

[quote="CuriousInIL, post:12, topic:226586"]
If, after you are married, you wouldn't mind her doing it with another man, then it's okay to do now.

[/quote]

That is a very good point. It reminds me of something Jason Evert said in a talk I watched on youtube. He was talking to young guy who wanted to do things with his girlfriend and was asking why not. Evert's reasoning was something like this:
Do you see yourself getting married someday? To her? Not sure? Then probably to someone else then. You are each someone's future spouse. The woman you are going to marry someday is out there somewhere, maybe with her current boyfriend right now. How much do you want that guy doing with the girl you are going to marry someday?

I highly recommend watching some talks by Jason Evert and Christopher West on youtube. They are both great speakers, but speak to different audiences, so you'll probably prefer one over the other. Evert is geared more towards teens I think, West adults. Idk how old you are. I have enjoyed watching talks by both though. West also has a great book out called The Good News about Sex and Marriage, based on John Paul II's Theology of the Body teachings. It's a very easy read, and written in question and answer format. He has also written Theology of the Body for Beginners. I have read both and found them helpful.


#14

[quote="CuriousInIL, post:12, topic:226586"]
If, after you are married, you wouldn't mind her doing it with another man, then it's okay to do now.

[/quote]

Puhlease... that's just too farfetched. You don't really believe that you are speaking with someone as if she was already married. Anything the 2 of them talk about for their marriage would be a big no-no if she were married. And words can touch much more than a kiss or a hug. I wouldn't use such a comparison. The trick is valuing her/you more than what you feel or want to feel.

Take care,
Daniel


#15

I've heard of people saying that sex is anything that causes arousal. That could pretty much mean anything and everything.


#16

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