How to get a Church to turn from the Gospel in several easy steps:

Some of you may know that the ELCA Lutherans have embraced gospel of homosexual politics instead of the cross. This didn’t happen overnight.

Here how it was done according to one of the leaders of the process - step by step. Bishop Herbert W. Chilstrom (as president of the ELCA) describes his careful manipulation over time to get people ‘used’ to the idea.

startribune.com/opinion/218173392.html?page=all&prepage=1&c=y#continue

It sickens me frankly, to see how the same steps that pedophiles use to groom their victims (step by step) was used to groom a church into the accepting homosexual partners as the same as marriage.

As someone with once strong ties to the ELCA, If I have one bit of advice it is this : Do not budge one inch. Stand on the solid ground of the Gospel.

The Catholic Church will never accept gay marriage

Well…you can see what happens without authority…when you have a paper pope instead of a living pope…guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit…and someone who Lutherans would rather term as against Christ…go figure…:shrug:

I think it’s a mistake to rest too easy on this - I can very well see how secular governments over then next 100 years could very well categorize religious people who proclaim the Gospel as a ‘hate group.’

Perhaps it will end there, but perhaps not - we’ve seen Socialist ‘re-education’ camps already in the 19th century.

So while (and I pray) the Catholic church may escape this particular problem, it’s members may not be able to escape.

I think you have cause to celebrate that you have good leadership - but your children will be growing up in a secular culture that no-longer affirms church values.

The majority (54%) of Catholics here in America support same-sex marriage.

We, in the West, have grown lazy in out proclamation of the Gospel - when even our own children don’t go to church. So while it’s good to have strong leadership, we must tend to our children in Christ.

Since homosexuality isn’t the only issue that can drive a Church away from Christ, I’m going to broaden and simplify the steps, such that they apply to any situation:

Step 1: Mistake nice people for good people. (Assume that anyone who bathes regularly, is related to someone who tithes at Church, and who has a tale of woe to tell is a “good person.”)

Step 2: Encourage others to mistake nice people for good people.

Step 3: Interpret the Scriptures by yourself, outside of the Holy Tradition, with a bias to make them say what you want them to say.

Step 4: Create a toxic work environment for people who are trying to hold to the Holy Tradition.

Step 5: After those who were holding to the Holy Tradition have quit in frustration, call a vote, and act surprised when everyone who remains has been intoxicated with the “new reality” that you have been promoting under the radar.

Step 6: Blame the Holy Spirit for the “surprising result” of the vote, and make it your Church’s new policy.

Step 7: Create an environment where those who want to keep their jobs have to continue to encourage “nice people” of non-traditional persuasion to populate the pews left vacant by the more traditional members, who fled when your new policy was made public. (Act surprised that they left.)

That’s perfect synopsis of what happened to the ELCA.

The trick is to learn from this rather frank admission of this ELCA Bishop and watch out for this happening again.

For my own LCMS church - I think we’re beginning to see these step applied for female clergy. It’s starting out small with an acceptance of Deaconesses and the larger roles they seem to be playing.

The last time I was at a Catholic mass, my impressions were that perhaps the Catholic church will have this issue as well.

[quote=benjohnson] Quote:

Originally Posted by pablope

Well…you can see what happens without authority…when you have a paper pope instead of a living pope…guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit…and someone who Lutherans would rather term as against Christ…go figure…

I think you have cause to celebrate that you have good leadership - but your children will be growing up in a secular culture that no-longer affirms church values.

The majority (54%) of Catholics here in America support same-sex marriage.

We, in the West, have grown lazy in out proclamation of the Gospel - when even our own children don’t go to church. So while it’s good to have strong leadership, we must tend to our children in Christ.
[/quote]

You are so correct. The RCC is in a crisis. Gay marriage, abortion, contraception are things that many catholics in this country accept. In fact, many in leadership positions would rather talk about social justice issues than intrinsic evils.

I think things are coming to a head. I know the Church will not change it’s teaching…so what will happen will be interesting.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

What has happened in the Catholic Church, or in many parishes, I should say, is that “lay person” and “woman” have come to be synonymous, which is why so many women take on the lay roles. Men are happy to let them do it, because it is a lot of work for no pay and very little prestige. :shrug:

Fortunately it’s turning around in many places, where priests are actively encouraging men to take on lay roles, as well.

ACK!

Before I forget… I should make it abundantly clear that there are many in the ELCA who are faithful proclaiming the Gospel as well they can and are struggling to either fix the leadership, or leave for better shepherds.

Millions of ELCA members have done the latter, and prayers would be appreciated for the former.

That’s good to hear! We’re doing likewise, and importantly finding roles for women that allow them to apply their God-given gifts appropriately and perhaps even more effectively.

My sincerest condolences…

I offer these words of Alexander Pope.

Vice is a monster of so frightful mien
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face,
We first endure, then pity, then embrace.

So-called homosexual “marriage”, abortion, and contraception, (along with many other issues), are also social justice issues. According to my youth minister at my lifeteen group, true justice is things being ordered the way they’re supposed to be ordered. I think it’s safe to say that abortion, homosexuality, and contraception are all disordered actions, (against the natural order that God set up).

:rotfl: and :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Particularly:

*Step 1: Mistake nice people for good people. *

and

*Step 6: Blame the Holy Spirit for the “surprising result” of the vote, and make it your Church’s new policy. *

I would add…

Step 1 1/2: Accuse those who are holding to what your church has always taught of “Causing division”. Obviously, if the “nice people” want the change, then those who are against it must be nasty or stupid.

Step 6 1/2: Accuse those who, after the vote, are still opposed of “Obstructing the spirit”.

It is true that Catholics and non-Catholics alike will surely have to suffer for the Truth, including the truth that homosexuality is sinful and gravely disordered. However, the Church will never change her teaching on homosexuality or anything else. She cannot, because it is not her teaching, but God’s, taught through His Church. God will not allow doctrine to be changed. In fact, I remember reading a long time ago about a pope who tried to publish a book with heretical teachings, but God killed him before allowing it. Unfortunately I do not remember the source, because it was many years ago that I read this. If anyone else knows of a reliable source for this or a similar story, (as I think this has happened more than once, unfortunately), please post it.

I realize that that this may not have been what you meant, but I felt the need to let people know this, as many doubt the infallibility of the Church and unchanging doctrine.

Only God knows where your heart is and that your on a Catholic Forum, who knows we could meet in the same pew. I detect a sincere and loving heart before the Lord, what more can we say than
“Speak Lord, your servant is listening”.

The majority of Catholics may or may not support same sex marriage; I don’t put a lot of stock in polls so no need to ask for a source, but the Catholic Church will never condone
same sex marriage.

It was an ABC poll : abcnews.go.com/Politics/support-gay-marriage-reaches-milestone-half-americans-support/story?id=13159608

The numbers aren’t really the point - given the clear Catholic teaching, any number above 0% indicates that we have a lot of work to do.

But to show what happened to the ELCA is not a ‘one-time’ event, I will point out the ‘Lutheran church never changed’ as well - anyone can read the bible to see that the teaching has remained the same: Sodom is still gone, man and wife are married.

And yet… even this, written in the Bible itself is denied.

This secular world is no longer (and maybe never was) our ally - and it’s a lesson I’ve had to learn over and over.

Ah the little incremental changes that ad up over time. Slash and burn the torah and paul right out of the bible while their at it.

It is not many Christmases ago that I stood outside a Friary here in Ireland before Mass, chatting to a man…
The gay marriage thing had been in the news and this man declared “Oh let them marry!”

He. a daily mass goer ,clearly had no idea re church teaching… wonder how widespread this is.

The lady at that Friary who ran the bookshop openly disagreed with some church teachings saying " God gave me a mind…"

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.