How To Get To Heaven When You Die


#659

How can the Body of Christ be separate from Christ? She is not. The Church IS the Body of Christ, and even Protestants would say that, although they would understand the word “church” to be something quite different from what Catholics understand her to be.

The reason why this is important (at least in my simple brain) is that it is possible that (no matter what denomination one belongs to…including mine) that one can go to church faithfully without trusting Christ.

Ah ha. Agreed. Point of note: The Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Churches) are not “denominations.” They are true particular Churches in the Apostolic Succession. Denominations are break-offs and, in our view, they are all defective in some way. I do not deny the graces or the Saints of Jesus among my Protestant neighbors, but from the Catholic view, their teaching and practice are defective.

At least I know people that claim they were like that. They assumed that by going to church and being good people, they would gain eternal life (presumably God grades on the curve or something like that). These are folks that to me would be “Trusting in the church” as opposed to “Trusting in Christ”.

Right. Catholics agree with you. You have to trust in Christ. But there is no opposition between Christ and His Church. To us, the Church, which was HIS idea, cannot defect from Christ *in teaching faith and morals. *The Bride and the Bridegroom are one flesh.

Hey I’m not Catholic, but even if I were a good Catholic I would never put “Trust in the Church”. My reasoning (as a good Catholic) would be that I trust in Christ and trust in what He said in Matthew 16. By trusting in Christ and trusting in His words, I could then (as a good Catholic) trust the Church. In other words, my trust in the Church has a foundation of trust in Christ, not vice-versa.

We would say there *IS *no “vice versa.” If you trust Christ – Especially Matthew 16! – you trust the Church. Your relationship with the particulars of the Church – the people, the teaching, the structures – will have a different expression from your personal relationship with Christ but they will not be separate.

If I were a good Catholic, my answer would be dependent upon my mood-du-jour.

No, it wouldn’t. If your were a good Catholic, your answer would be the same yesterday, today, and forever! Jesus Christ is Lord!

If I were in a magnaminous mood, I would answer the “expected” answer and quibble about the Baptist Christianese and the one time “fire insurance” implications later. If I were in a snarky mood of course I would go for “Other”.

Oh BTW…the “Trail of Blood” is nonsense which reputable Baptists do not accept.

Yeah. Serious Baptists cringe when people mention that.


#660

Mozart…

Part of this issue boils down to what we mean. As mentioned, when you say Church, you are more than likely saying what ever church you go to on a daily basis.

To properly understand what we mean by this, Church has to be looked at as something different.

Church is not a building that has rules and regulations around it. We believe that the Church was founded by Christ (as you already know I am sure) but its more than that, We believe that because God founded a church, the Church he founded cannot error. It is impossible. Not because it is run by men, but ultimately because it is run by God. God ensures that the men who have the reins will somehow always ensure they will NEVER teach error publicly to the whole church.

To a Catholic, the two are inseparable. If you follow the Church Christ Founded, you are following Christ. If you Follow Christ, you follow the Church he founded.

It is Impossible to follow the Church and NOT follow Christ. It is also impossible toe Follow Christ and NOT follow the Church.

It does not deal with political views of what a church should or should not be. It doesn’t deal with what a congregation thinks should be taught, or even what the elders think should be taught. TO a Catholic, though there is a human Chief Pastor, the Pope, the true head is Christ, and Part of this church is that Christ will NEVER let the Pope teach anything false with respect to faith and morals in a public fashion to the whole church.

So yes, if you follow the Church completely, You follow Christ.
If you follow Christ Completely, you follow the Church.

In Christ


#661

Just to tweak this a bit, we ALL know people who THOUGHT they were “following the Church” – people who went through the motions but never really connected with the person of Jesus Christ. It’s not that the Church was stopping them, it just didn’t happen for them – for whatever reason. They find Jesus outside the Church and then think that He wasn’t THERE all the time . . .
Fortunately, some of these people get the :newidea: later in life and bring “Jesus” back with them when they return to the Church.


#662

Here is the reason I believe that Christ and His Church are ‘one’–the many Scriptures and Sacred Traditions that tell us that Christ is ‘the bridegroom’ and His Church ‘the bride’ along with Christ telling us that ‘a man leaves his family to cling to his wife, and the two become one flesh’. How, then, is Christ ‘not’ His Church?

As was noted, as well, the fact that “The Church” is separate from “all the individuals who belong to ‘the church’ clearly indicates that “The Church” is more than the sum of its parts. Every individual is capable of being less than perfect. But. . .Christ tells us that we are 'to be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” Now. . .would Christ tell us to do what is ‘impossible’ for us to do? If any given one of us is capable of following this direct admonition of Jesus, certainly “The Church” is likewise capable of being ‘perfect’ as well.

Finally, it appears that some people do become confused because they attempt to ‘limit’ God. When they hear a Catholic tell them “Christ is one with His Church”, what they understand by this is “The Church is attempting to make itself ‘equal’ with Christ’, attempting to claim that IT has God’s power, God’s omnipotence, claiming that IT has all the characteristics of God, attempting to set itself up in place of God.”

But that is NOT what Catholic teaching states is what is meant by “Christ is one with His Church”. What our teaching states and means is that, as Christ is Bridegroom and the Church is Bride, Christ Himself has established His Church in a ‘spousal’ type of relationship, as prefigured in the Old Testament and expounded on in the New Testament and as guided by the Holy Spirit, such that, Christ being the ‘way’ to Salvation as Scripture tells us, His ‘oneness’ and relationship with the Church means that it is through His ‘way’, His ‘name’, His ‘word’ all of which and more are “His Church”, that we most fully find Him and follow Him. He is the Way, the Church the visible means of that Way, to Salvation, and all who find salvation do so because Christ willed it so by the establishment of His bride, His Church.


#663

I understand that. But here are my problems.

In the book of Acts you read a lot of cases where the apostles go into totally uncharted areas where the people have never heard about Christ. What do the apostles tell these folks.

I don’t see once where the apostles tell the folks to “trust the church that Jesus is building”. I do see the apostles tell the folks to (in one case) “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. The believers are then baptized and done…you are now a member of the church.

I also read in the book of Romans where Paul is giving believers insight into what exactly happened when they were converted. If there is anything about church in Romans I can’t remember it off the top of my head.

All throughout the New Testament it appears to be the same pattern (at least to my simple brain). They start out by repenting of sin and putting faith in Christ; they immediately are baptized; and by virtue of these two acts they are members of the one. church.

I understand that we disagree on how much you can trust the one church once you are in it. You trust your church 100%…me somewhat less. But that is a separate issue. The issue in my mind is how the whole process is initiated. I have no reason to believe it is initiated by “trusting in a church”

And I think this is because of the phenomenon Mercygate mentions:

Just to tweak this a bit, we ALL know people who THOUGHT they were “following the Church” – people who went through the motions but never really connected with the person of Jesus Christ. It’s not that the Church was stopping them, it just didn’t happen for them – for whatever reason. They find Jesus outside the Church and then think that He wasn’t THERE all the time . . .
Fortunately, some of these people get the later in life and bring “Jesus” back with them when they return to the Church.

That is exactly our concern when we hear “putting your trust in the church”.


#664

To obey the teachings of the Church is exactly the same thing as to obey Christ, since the Church is Christ’s voice. It is through obedience to Christ that we come to salvation. Obviously, faith has to come before obedience - it’s difficult to obey something we don’t have any faith in - but obedience is the key.


Please clarify this document for me?
#665

Show me in the bible where it says that they were catholic. They weren’t any denomination.


#666

Kindly explain the overwheming evidence of Fox’s book of martyrs.

I am still waiting.


#667

Why do catholics preach another gospel?

Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Wrong. The oral word is no longer in practice. There are no more prophets

1Co 13:8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. {fail: Gr. vanish away} For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. {done away: Gr. vanish away} When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

The written word is more sure than the oral word:

2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:


#668

#669

#670

No we are saved by the gospel through the word of God:

Ro 1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Notice it doesn’t say “to everyone who goes to a catholic church”

.o 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If paul doesn’t preach the gospel, Christ’s death on the cross is of none effect. It is not about baptism as stated above, but about the gospel.

We are to preach the word of the Lord (the bible) and the gospel (which is in the bible)

Ac 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

NOT what some church says, but what the bible says.

We go to church for edification, to “build up” it’s members, not to worship it. We go there to worship God, not the church.

The word of truth (is located in the bible) contains the gospel

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you

Either you are going to believe the bible (God’s word) or you are going to believe the lie. Choose.


#671

So you believe a book written by a die-hard protestant who apparently hated the Church and would do anything to discredit it? It’s like reading Dawkin’s God’s Delusion and considering it as your cannon for refutation of religion. :rolleyes:

But fine, here you have a pretty good website about the book. As far as I know none of the authors are so you don’t have to worry about Catholic bias in it. It’s just a historical take of the book, including the actual text in various versions, the art and essays about the book.

Here is a particularly nice introductory essay ‘“St Peter did not do thus”: Papal history in the Acts and Monuments’ by Dr. Tomas Freeman.

Here is a Catholic take on the book from various other place:
Acts and Monuments by Richard Clarke
New Advent Encyclopedia

And here is something from Encyclopedia Britannica on John Fox


#672

Frodo, I say this with all due respect to you.
The Catholic church teaches the Gospel as passed down from the Apostles.
If you are not holding to it, then it is you that are preaching a different gospel.
I know you really hold to what you truely believe, but many of you beliefs are your own personal interpretation of scripture and were never taught in christianity until around the time of the protestant reformation.
I, and the many catholics on this forum, believe that Jesus established one church, that church is both the invisible body of Christ, and it also had a visible aspect to it which we see in it’s hierarchy. The promise of the Holy Spirit to help guide us to the truth was made to the apostles, Jesus didn’t say that to the crowds when he was preaching, he could have done that but he didn’t, he chose to tell only his apostles this promise.
Yes, we can be led by the Holy Spirit to better understand scripture, but to be infallibly led by the spirit was only given to the church.

You are wrong when you say the oral word has ended, that idea,is not taught in scripture, the passage I showed you said that it would abide forever. It is found in the sacred tradition of the church.

You can accept the truth, or you can reject it, but what I am trying to share with you is truth.
Only spiritual pride would keep you from accepting the fullness of the faith which can be found only in the Catholic church.
You can keep reading those biased books filled with errors as your references, but that will never lead you to the truth, they can only lead you away from it.

Sacred scripture is God breathed, and only it is God breathed.
The magesterium of the church and the sacred traditions are not God breathed, they are however guarded from error by the Holy Spirit. The Oral traditions, were God breathed when they were first given to the Apostles, but when they were handed down, they were no longer God breathed, but again, I emphasize, the are guarded by the Holy Spirit from error.
Guarded from error just like in Acts 15 the council of Jerusalem decided against circumcision, and the councils of the church which taught against heretics or as you say, a false gospel here is the link to the councils if you would care to look at them:
1st Council of Nicaea
Constantinople One
Council of Ephesus
Council of Chalcedon
Constantinople Two
Constantinople Three
2nd Council of Nicaea
Constantinople Four
Lateran One
Lateran Two
Lateran Three
Lateran Four
1st Council of Lyons
2nd Council of Lyons
Council of Vienne
Council of Constance
Council of Florence
Lateran Five
Council of Trent
First Vatican Council
Second Vatican Council

Now you can live in your little fantasy of church history, to me it is like those who don’t believe that man really landed on the moon, or like the president of Iran who denys the holocaust, but the reality is that Jesus established a church, and that church is the catholic church, there have been many heretical groups, but if you really reaearch them, I don’t think you would want to be associated with them like the “trail of blood” links the baptist church to.
Well, I need to go now, I hope you will take what I have written to heart, though I doubt you will
May God bless you.


#673

Acts 9:31 ἡ μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ᾽ ὁλης της ιουδαιας και γαλιλαιας και σαμαρειας ειχεν ειρηνην οικοδομουμενη και πορευομενη τω φοβω του κυριου, και τη παρακλησει του ἁγιου πνευματος επληθυνοντο.
“ekklesia kath olos” is translated as “the church throughout all” but that actually literally says “Catholic Church”.

As for other documentation…show me from the earliest verifiable historic writings of Christian church where they teach things that are not Catholic in what they teach.

Didache
Martyrdom of Polycarp
St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans


#674

:eek:

First, you keep contradicting yourself all the time! Which one is it?
Second, I thought we are saved by Jesus Christ and his Sacrifice on the Cross! :shrug:

Ro 1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The Gospel is the means of salvation. It doesn’t say that we are saved by the Gospel but that Gospel is there for our Salvation.

Notice it doesn’t say “to everyone who goes to a catholic church”

Does the Bible teach that Outside of the Church there is no Salvation? I does!
Why would it say Catholic Church? There was only one Church (and there still is) and no protestant sects trying to lure people away from it claiming that they are members of some invisible Church.

And notice that the Bible says that it’s for everyone who believes? Believes what? In the person Jesus Christ? That Jesus Christ is God? In That 25% if the Truth? 64% of the Truth? No, the whole truth! And the fullness of truth is found ONLY in the Church that the Son himself founded on Peter. And the Church is part of the Gospel. Church is the New Jerusalem of the New Covenant.

Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If Paul doesn’t preach the gospel, Christ’s death on the cross is of none effect. It is not about baptism as stated above, but about the gospel.

No, not at all. Let’s not take the text out of context and look at the verses around it.

1 Corinthians 1:11-17
My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: (1) One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

(2) Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? (3) I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel— (4) not with words of human wisdom, (5) lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

1. So there were some people who could agree on whom they are following (Paul or Christ).
2. Paul is concerned and shows them that it is Jesus Christ whom we should follow.
3. He shows them that they are baptized because of Jesus not because of him. He is therefore glad that he didn’t baptize them so not to cause more confusion.
4. He explains that he did not baptize them because that is not his mission given to him by Christ his mission is to preach.
5. He goes into specifics and explains that he preaches not words of human wisdom but God’s will
6. If what he would say was human wisdom then this would mean that Christ was really not what he claimed to be.

So the above passage does not speak about the importance of baptism but simply about the fact that Paul was chosen by God to preach and that what he says does not come from his intellectuality but from God.

So no, Baptism (as has been shown to you) is necessary for salvation but of course it doesn’t save you.

We are to preach the word of the Lord (the bible) and the gospel (which is in the bible)

Yes we are to preach word of God. But tell me, does the Bible say that the only source of the Gospel and in fact word of God is in the Bible?

Ac 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

NOT what some church says, but what the bible says.

So you actually believe that they were holding the New Testament and reading it to people? :rolleyes:

Rule #1. Bible is the word of God but word of God is not Bible.
Rule #2. What a text says and how we interpret it are two different things and do not necessarily match.
Rule #3. The Bible in infallible but there is no point of having an infallible text without an infallible interpreter.
Rule #4. It is what the Church of Christ says because only in the True Church exists the authority to interpret the Gospel.
Rule #5. You will be unable to give us any passage in the Bible which shows that people were preaching on they own. All of those who taught with an authority were send out by the Apostles or those who the Apostles appointed.

We go to church for edification, to “build up” it’s members, not to worship it. We go there to worship God, not the church.

Worshiping the Church? Dude, that’s crazy! Who would do that? Certainly not Catholics!

BUT, we don’t go to Church. We are part of the Church (or not). The Christ founded the Church and this Church is one, catholic (universal) and apostolic. We can leave it, but we don’t go in and out whenever we want to. The Church is the mystical body of Christ, and not some building where we gather.

The word of truth (is located in the bible) contains the gospel

That’s correct

Either you are going to believe the bible (God’s word) or you are going to believe the lie. Choose.

I believe the word of God, the word preached by Christ and His Apostles. This word we call Sacred Tradition and it consists of written Tradition (the Scripture) and oral Tradition. These were both preserved by the Church and are found in the Church and only the Church.


#675

Since the teachings of the Catholic Church can be traced directly back to the New Testament (as I have repeatedly shown you) and these teachings can also be verified by outside objective historical sources, (again, as I have repeatedly shown you) and since that cannot be validly asserted by you concerning the gospel that you have believed, and since what you believe can only be traced back to the beginnings of a particular religious denomination (at worst) and/or to the “reformers” (at best), then from all the objective evidence available, your own message actually appears to fulfill the scripture that you have cited.

In which case I would simply turn your own remark back upon you. “Why do” You "preach another gospel?

Wrong. The oral word is no longer in practice. There are no more prophets

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. {fail: Gr. vanish away} For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. {done away: Gr. vanish away} When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

This is a common Baptist argument that never holds water because it is pulled from the context of the New Testament in an effort to justify something that the Word of God does not actually teach. If it were true that there are no more prophets, then explain the following passages.
[FONT=“Palatino Linotype”]Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

1st Corinthians 12:[7] To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
[8] To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
[9] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
[10] to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
[11] All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
[12] For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry: and shall send gifts one to another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt upon the earth…18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great, and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth.

The written word is more sure than the oral word: 2Pe 1:18

This is just an out of context citation that is being twisted to make it appear to apply when in fact it does not.[/FONT]


#676

I believe the Bible (God’s word) and Apostolic Tradition (God’s word). I therefore choose to reject the lie that we are saved by faith alone. “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2:24.


#677

I have shown you over and over verse after verse that tells you how to be saved. You want to believe your church over what God says.I do believe that this can more validly be alleged to you Frodo. As I have shown again and again, your message is not from just the Word of God as you assert but from your denominational interpretations and is not consistent with the Bible nor with the historically verifiable teachings of the early church. Therefore it does indeed constitute “another gospel”.

Notice it doesn’t say “to everyone who goes to a Baptist church”:shrug:

.o 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize

, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If paul doesn’t preach the gospel, Christ’s death on the cross is of none effect. It is not about baptism as stated above, but about the gospel.Then why be “baptist”? Why concern oneself with the mode of baptism if baptism is irrelevant to salvation as you are asserting. I have already shown you that Acts 2:28-39 and 22:16 both plainly tell us that we must be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and that it washes away our sins. Why do you preach another gospel of men that contradicts the very Word of God that you assert to us is your sole authority?

We are to preach the word of the Lord (the bible)

and the gospel (which is in the bible)

Ac 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

NOT what some church says, but what the bible says.Really? Yet your own citation nowhere alludes to the Bible as we have it today. In fact it did not exist at the time that was written. It was still oral teaching from our Lord as handed down by the apostles. I don’t think you can point to a portion of the gospels that had even been written down at the time your citation was written.

We go to church for edification, to “build up” it’s members, not to worship it. We go there to worship God, not the church.

This is wrong teaching and propaganda without any substance. No Catholic so far has asserted that we go to church to worship the church, and no such teaching exists within the Catholic faith, though perhaps you wish it did in order to make your specious remark appear to have some validity.

**The word of truth (is located in the bible) contains the gospel **

Eph 1:13

1Pe 1:25 But nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that the Bible alone is the sole authority for correct doctrine. It’s simply not there, and (as has been shown to you many times already) the Word of God actually says that the church is “[size=][FONT=“Palatino Linotype”]the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

The Catholic Church has been preaching and teaching the Gospel for 2,000 years, and it has been shown already that your faith community is nowhere near that old and that your message is different from the one both in the New Testament and the one that is recorded in the writings of the early church.

Either you are going to believe the bible (God’s word) or you are going to believe the lie. Choose.

:amen: We Catholics believe the Bible. Every word of it! We just do not believe your modern unscriptural interpretations of some parts of it.

Now, who then has believed a lie?[/FONT][/size]


#678

Exactly, the Catholic Church isn’t a denomination.


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.