How to reoncile this passge with notion that Muslims worship same God?


#1

I wasn’t sure if this belonged in Scripture or Islam, but here goes:

1John2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also.

How is this reconciled with the fact that Muslims and modern Jews deny the Son yet are said to worship the same God?

The surrounding context seems to be St. John warning Christians to be wary of those that deny the Son. Is just one of those cases that isn’t meant to apply to those of invincible ignorance?


#2

As Muslims we believe that Christians and Jews worship the same God as us, however we believe they went astray when it came to His names and attributes.


#3

[quote=Emad]As Muslims we believe that Christians and Jews worship the same God as us, however we believe they went astray when it came to His names and attributes.
[/quote]

Right, and I think the Cathoic Church would say the same thing about Jews and Muslims. Ijust was wondering how to interpret this passage in that light. I guess one might argue that Allah is the Trinity and not just the Father in order to say that Muslims worship the same God as Christians, but I think that’s stretching it. One Muslim on this board said that Allah is analogous (or is) what we call the Father. I’m figuring it must be a “through no fault of their own they deny the Son” type of thing.:ehh:


#4

[quote=Genesis315] One Muslim on this board said that Allah is analogous (or is) what we call the Father. I’m figuring it must be a “through no fault of their own they deny the Son” type of thing.:ehh:
[/quote]

hehe, that was me. I also have the same problem that you do about us worshiping the same God; so, what I did was try and break it down. Catholics have a 3 head God figure (3 in 1). Muslims believe that the Holy Spirit is the arch angle Gabriel, God has no son and Jesus (pbuh) is a human servant of God, so that leaves the father. When Muslim say God, you should think father because we don’t accept the other two. I was also thinking that maybe the reason why the Vatican says we worship the same God is because if you truly believe in 3 in 1, that they are all equal and can not be separated, then that means if you only believe in one of the 3, then by default you also believe in the other 2 because they are all one, are they not?

wa salam


#5

[quote=fatuma] then that means if you only believe in one of the 3, then by default you also believe in the other 2 because they are all one, are they not?

wa salam
[/quote]

See, that’s what I was thinking, but that passage I quoted seems to say just the opposite. It seems to say if your reject one, then you reject the others because they are one. St. Jon even says he is addressing those who already know the truth, so that quote may be only aimed at them.


#6

How to reoncile this passge with notion that Muslims worship same God?

I don’t think it is possible.

Quran is very harsh on Christians.

YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!(9:30)

SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!(9:30)

We hear Muhammad asking Allah to curse, fight, and destroy the Christians and Jews. We hear Muhammad call the Christians and Jews deluded, perverse, and turned away. It sounds like Muhammad hated the Christians and Jews because they rejected him as a false prophet.


#7

Morover,

The Muslims are to make war upon Christians and Jews, compel to convert to Islam, or pay extortion.

9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) **nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger ** (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Here Muhammad and Muslim’s Allah is commanding his followers to make war upon Christians and Jews unless they converted to Islam or paid extortion (this is jizyah). It is not a defensive verse. It is completely offensive. It Clearly asks muslims to fight against Christians and Jews. And, they should pay Jizyah tax to submit to muslims to accept muslim superiority.

Now let’s read what the great Islamic scholars say about this verse. Ibn Kathir’s Quranic commentary for verse 9:29, pages 405 - 409, states:

Page 404:

The Order to fight People of the Scriptures until they give the Jizyah.

Page 405

This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the Pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims’ control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination….

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr (Unbeliever) and Disgrace.

Muslim’s Allah said, until they pay the Jizyah, if they do not choose to embrace Islam, with willing submission, in defeat and subservience, and feel themselves subdued, disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated.

Ibn Kathir, one of the greatest Muslim scholars ever, states that Christians and Jews that don’t embrace Islam are forced to submit in defeat, subservience, and feel themselves subdued, disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Muslims are not allowed to honor Christians and Jews, for they are miserable, disgraced, and humiliated.

A second reference for this verse comes from the “Reliance of the Traveler”, page 559 [11]. This book is not just a commentary; rather it is “A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law.” It is based upon the Shafi’i school of Islamic law. (There are four major schools of Islamic jurisprudence, the Shafi’i being the largest of them). The book represents not just the work of a single scholar, but rather “represents a large collectivity of scholars….” It is not just a simple Quranic commentary; rather it is a foundational theological textbook.

The Caliph makes war upon the Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians, provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax Jizya…in accordance with the word of Allah Most High:

“Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden - who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book - until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled.” 9:29

The Caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim.


#8

[quote=fatuma]hehe, that was me. I also have the same problem that you do about us worshiping the same God; so, what I did was try and break it down. Catholics have a 3 head God figure (3 in 1). Muslims believe that the Holy Spirit is the arch angle Gabriel, God has no son and Jesus (pbuh) is a human servant of God, so that leaves the father. When Muslim say God, you should think father because we don’t accept the other two. I was also thinking that maybe the reason why the Vatican says we worship the same God is because if you truly believe in 3 in 1, that they are all equal and can not be separated, then that means if you only believe in one of the 3, then by default you also believe in the other 2 because they are all one, are they not?

wa salam
[/quote]

Yes, you still believe in a God with human limitations, you tell God what’s what, as in saying “we don’t accept the other two”. To put it simply, if Muslims don’t believe in something, it can’t be true!:smiley:


#9

[quote=Booklover]Yes, you still believe in a God with human limitations, you tell God what’s what, as in saying “we don’t accept the other two”. To put it simply, if Muslims don’t believe in something, it can’t be true!:smiley:
[/quote]

And calling a human God is not putting limitations?

wa salam


#10

[quote=fatuma]And calling a human God is not putting limitations?

wa salam
[/quote]

No, not if that human is also Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and 2nd person of the Holy Trinity!


#11

I was also thinking that maybe the reason why the Vatican says we worship the same God is because if you truly believe in 3 in 1, that they are all equal and can not be separated, then that means if you only believe in one of the 3, then by default you also believe in the other 2 because they are all one, are they not?

Fatuma,

If this is your belief, you are not far from understanding the mystery of the Trinity.

Yes it is true, the three Persons cannot and are not separated. They are in perfect union with each other from eternity to eternity. However, there is the distinction of each Persons but not the substance.

Pio


#12

[quote=Booklover]No, not if that human is also Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and 2nd person of the Holy Trinity!
[/quote]

It does not befit God’s majesty to:

have a son
have a daughter
come down on earth and eat, drink and be killed
lie
steal
etc.

God is ONE, you can call it what you want…but Jesus is sitting on the “right hand side” of God, right? Thats your belief. Thats two people. The holy ghost somewhere in between, that’s 3. you say 3 in 1…ok. Muslims say 1 in 1.

Thats all guys, just an understanding of what befits God’s majesty. And it is not us that made this up…it is God telling us this.


#13

[quote=Faith101]It does not befit God’s majesty to:

have a son
have a daughter
come down on earth and eat, drink and be killed
lie
steal
etc.

God is ONE, you can call it what you want…but Jesus is sitting on the “right hand side” of God, right? Thats your belief. Thats two people. The holy ghost somewhere in between, that’s 3. you say 3 in 1…ok. Muslims say 1 in 1.

Thats all guys, just an understanding of what befits God’s majesty. And it is not us that made this up…it is God telling us this.
[/quote]

**I don’t know about anyone else, but if I see anymore of this stuff, I’m going to blow a gasket! Faith, please stop trying to force your beliefs on us! We don’t believe that Mohammed is a prophet or that the Qur’an is the word of God!:frowning: **

How many times do we have to say it!


#14

[quote=Faith101]It does not befit God’s majesty to:

have a son
have a daughter
come down on earth and eat, drink and be killed
lie
steal
etc.

God is ONE, you can call it what you want…but Jesus is sitting on the “right hand side” of God, right? Thats your belief. Thats two people. The holy ghost somewhere in between, that’s 3. you say 3 in 1…ok. Muslims say 1 in 1.

Thats all guys, just an understanding of what befits God’s majesty. And it is not us that made this up…it is God telling us this.
[/quote]

Faith101 you are becoming a chore. But who am I to say, you obviously, know what God can and can’t do. Really “befits God’s majesty”! Who are you to decide?


#15

:slight_smile: Faith101
It does not befit God’s majesty to:

have a son
have a daughter
come down on earth and eat, drink and be killed
lie
steal
etc.

God is ONE, you can call it what you want…but Jesus is sitting on the “right hand side” of God, right? Thats your belief. Thats two people. The holy ghost somewhere in between, that’s 3. you say 3 in 1…ok. Muslims say 1 in 1.

Thats all guys, just an understanding of what befits God’s majesty. And it is not us that made this up…it is God telling us this.

Reuben:
It’s okay. That’s the Islamic view and teaching.
But it’s doesn’t answer Genesis’ question. Why? Because Islam has different theology. Let’s not pretend, but many doctrines in both religions do not and cannot reconcile. Christians, though, can ask Muslim to clarify on some issues mentioned in the Bible, as Islam claims to come from the long line of prophets of God and some are specifically mentioned in the Bible. (Correct me if I’m wrong; it’s just for want of better words).

Concept of the Holy Trinity can never be truly comprehended if one does not have the faith to believe. So it’s fine with Muslims who don’t agree with this. You have to disagree otherwise to agree would effectively denying the truth of your own religion.

As a Christian, I cannot helped but through my own experience, that one doesn’t know what one misses regarding the love of God as revealed to mankind as in Christianity, if one doens’t accept the Holy Trinity. I know, I know, this is big statement. I’m just talking as a Christian.

To make the long story short, the three persons in the Holy Trinity is the manifestation of God in the long history of mankind. We cannot fully comprehend God, but only to what He has revealed to us. In mankind’s history, God has manifested as God the Father (the Creator), God the Son (The Redeemer) and God the Spirit (the Sanctifier). Mankind has experience God in these manifestations. They appeared distinctly in three entities and yet they are the one and only God.

Why God chose to reveal Himself in that manner? The answer is, it is because of His love, which is infinite.To come as the Son, in human flesh, is not that God is not omnipotent, but because of His love for us. God gives us free will, but God will not go aginst His Word also. Mankind suffers the consequence of sin, and with the click of God’s finger, He would be able to undo all that. But where is that infinite love of God if He wants to easily solve this problem? This lies in God’s love and believe me, many have experienced that love, that they are able even to believe what’s so difficult to comprehend in human’s term - the Holy Trinity.

Of course I can say to my Muslims brethrens, take it or leave it. But isn’t this our vital difference?

Peace

Reuben :slight_smile:


#16

[quote=Booklover]**I don’t know about anyone else, but if I see anymore of this stuff, I’m going to blow a gasket! Faith, please stop trying to force your beliefs on us! We don’t believe that Mohammed is a prophet or that the Qur’an is the word of God!:frowning: **

How many times do we have to say it!
[/quote]

Peace

I sincerely apologize if it seems I am trying to force my beliefs on you. The Quran clearly tells me that there is no compulsion in religion, and that God (not ME) would guide who HE wills.

In any case, this is what I believe. We are here to discuss our beliefs right. WHen you say “Jesus is the son of God” I accept that as your belief, although i dont agree.


#17

[quote=iamrefreshed]Faith101 you are becoming a chore. But who am I to say, you obviously, know what God can and can’t do. Really “befits God’s majesty”! Who are you to decide?
[/quote]

I am a slave of God, and I am more than happy and proud to call myself that. I dont decide anything, as you said, WHO AM I TO DECIDE? I’m a slave, a servant, a follower of God.

What i am telling you is that this is what has been revealed to us. God telling us that it does not befit his majest to have a son or a daughter, a mother or a father. Just relaying how we Muslims understand this.

p.s. Can God lie?


#18

Concept of the Holy Trinity can never be truly comprehended if one does not have the faith to believe. So it’s fine with Muslims who don’t agree with this. You have to disagree otherwise to agree would effectively denying the truth of your own religion.

To agree with Trinity would not only require me to give up my beliefs, but my common sense as well. I apologize if this is offensive…but after all the different explanations of what it means, and the many analogies…i can not comprehend it…you are right…this concept in Christianity takes faith and the suppression of a persons own thinking.

As a Christian, I cannot helped but through my own experience, that one doesn’t know what one misses regarding the love of God as revealed to mankind as in Christianity, if one doens’t accept the Holy Trinity. I know, I know, this is big statement. I’m just talking as a Christian.

This is the way i think about it. God is one, unique…He is all powerful and He ownes everything. Everything belongs to Him. He is the Controller of EVERYTHING that happens, but He never gets tired. He never gets hungry. All this…and He still calls out to little ol me and tries to guide me. For what? Is God harmed if I dont submit to Him…not in the least. I love Allah, the Loving, the All Merciful, the All Kind.

May He guide us all and grant us His presence in Paradise

To make the long story short, the three persons in the Holy Trinity is the manifestation of God in the long history of mankind. We cannot fully comprehend God, but only to what He has revealed to us. In mankind’s history, God has manifested as God the Father (the Creator), God the Son (The Redeemer) and God the Spirit (the Sanctifier). Mankind has experience God in these manifestations. They appeared distinctly in three entities and yet they are the one and only God.

I honestly appreciate the explanation. I can understand if God appears in different ways (as a human, etc) although I disagree. However, Jesus prays to God, Jesus is sitting at the right hand side of God…what does this mean?

but God will not go aginst His Word also. Mankind suffers the consequence of sin, and with the click of God’s finger, He would be able to undo all that. But where is that infinite love of God if He wants to easily solve this problem? This lies in God’s love and believe me, many have experienced that love, that they are able even to believe what’s so difficult to comprehend in human’s term - the Holy Trinity

The consequence of sin without repentence (and God’s mercy) is Hell. This goes for both Christianity and Islam. HOwever, Christianity adds the concept of “the scapegoate” to take man’s sin.

I am content knowing that I am born free from sin…and that the only sin i will be held accountable for is the one that i have made with my own hands. I am content knowing that if I repent, I am forgiven…a 100 or a 1000 times. I am content knowing that God loves me without Him having to come down and die.

Of course I can say to my Muslims brethrens, take it or leave it. But isn’t this our vital difference?

:slight_smile: To you, your religion. And to me, mine.

p.s. You are a kind and respectable human being…I appreciate that.


#19

How in God’s name is faith101 forcing her belief down your throat? We are only here to explain what Muslims believe so the ignorant people don’t keep going around and posting their lie. How do you think we feel when you keep telling us that God is human, and then He died? It takes a certain level of maturity to hold a dialogue and if you don’t fell that your big boy enough to handle it, then don’t post. But if you are, then show some manners.

wa salam


#20

If Muslims and modern Jews have truly been presented with the gospel of Jesus Christ and rejected Him, then this verse of Scripture would apply to them - and not in a good way.

It would certainly seem to us that this would not be invincible ignorance but willful rejection…and one don’t get eternal life by willfully rejecting the Son of God. But the line between invincible ignorance and willful rejection is for the Lord to determine/judge. He knows the heart, we don’t.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

[quote=Genesis315]I wasn’t sure if this belonged in Scripture or Islam, but here goes:

1John2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also.

How is this reconciled with the fact that Muslims and modern Jews deny the Son yet are said to worship the same God?

The surrounding context seems to be St. John warning Christians to be wary of those that deny the Son. Is just one of those cases that isn’t meant to apply to those of invincible ignorance?
[/quote]


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