How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

Trebor
thanks for the reply

If a man does in error, then how does he do correctly? Isn’t it the Grace of God to allow this to be without the penalty of death?

Sure, but this doesn’t address my question: why did Jesus instruct believers to ask for forgiveness many times after their initial conversion?

For one who is “saved,” yes, the penalty for mortal sin is spiritual death, which, if unrepented until bodily death, leads to TRUE death (the “second death” as Rev puts it), the loss of the soul into hell. The NASB calls mortal sin in 1 John “sin leading to death” and the KJV calls it “sin unto death.”

It’s not a question of repenting “enough.” If you repent, God in His mercy will forgive you.

Can I ask you a couple of questions?

Do you sin? I know I do.

If yes, do you ever commit sin “unto death” or have you ever committed sin “unto death”? What do you (or what would you) do about it?

When I do, I receive God’s forgiveness through one of the seven Sacraments he initiated, the Sacrament of Reconciliation, which he designed and instituted just for that purpose, knowing, in spite of everything, that I would sin gravely due to my human weaknesses. I’m not perfect like Jesus. Far from it. This sacrament is so wonderful and you can’t imagine (or maybe you can) how great it is to KNOW, beyond all doubt, that the sin is forgiven and I’ve been restored to Him! Truly “resurrected” and “born again!”

God Bless

Jesus died for our sins as the Ultimate Sacrifice so we would be able to stop sacrificing animals.
James 2:24
“For you see a man is justified by works and not by Faith Alone.”

Promethius … what kind of sin(s) does this refer to ? Just any Grave sin … or only the ultimate, unpardonable sin of APOSTASY ? Its the Judas, traitor sin that this refers to.
To wit, Christ said of the traitor … “it would of been better for that one not to have been born”. And, Christ also taught the unpardonable sin is ‘rejection of the Holy Spirit’ … which is ONE in Being, with Christ & the Father.

We can be ‘reclaimed’ from all Mortal sins …excepting the single ‘unpardonable’ sin … of turning our back on Christ, and spurning the Holy Spirit, after we have been ENLIGHTENED.

Just got shown a verse in class the other day that I think would be of immense help here.

I suggest asking them “what about what was lacking in Christ’s sacrifice?”. When they inevitably object and suggest nothing was lacking, thrown Colossians 1:24 at them - “Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.”

But new sins are committed; we’re forgiven but then we’re to ‘go, and sin no more’. And scripture tells us that no sinners can enter heaven. We need to look at God’s purpose for redemption. He never created man to sin, He doesn’t expect His will to be opposed forever-and He won’t allow it to. His ultimate purpose is to restore the justice and order to His universe that was lost at the Fall. His promise is to help us achieve this justice, not to capriciously decide it no longer matters.

Trebor

Good question, very good.
It’s a question of who is entitle what? As a man without the Lord, what is the man entitled? Isn’t it to return to the ground? (Dust to dust, ashes to ashes) and what is the Lord Jesus entitled? Isn’t it to be at the Right hand of God? Jesus being the Word of God was entitled to be in the Presence of God forever, before He came into the flesh and after He came into the flesh.

Therefore we are entitled nothing, and Jesus is entitled everything. If you don’t forgive then you believe you are entitled something. If you believe you are entitled, then you will be denied, hence for your sake, and the offender’s sake, you honor the Lord’s entitlement. For only Jesus Christ is sinless, and not a transgressor and owns all things. And He dose not condemn, but forgives. If a man returns to you seven times in a day and repents you forgive him, because your Lord has already forgiven the offender without your forgiving the offender.

When Jesus said, let him who is without sin cast the first stone, note that Jesus Christ was the only one there that was without sin, and had the perfect right to cast stones, and He did not cast any stones.

Those who don’t forgive, believe they are entitled, and are embittered and angry. Those who do, are at Peace with God.

Jesus taught about the ‘unpardonable’ mortal sin … rejection of Christ & his Spirit, by a Christian. The Judas sin.

But, this appears the ONLY instance where we have no recourse to forgivness of our sins via Confession. Paul in Hebrews 6:4-8 speaks to the sin of Judas … that we too are capable of committing. Unless we continue IN CHRIST til our final breath … the possiblity that our Salvation CAN BE LOST, via Apostasy, exists.

All original sin and pre-conversion sins ARE forgiven IN FULL at our conversions … and will never be counted against us thereafter. It’s our post-baptismal sinning that a Christian must deal with on daily basis. These sins are not forgiven us [in advance] upon our baptism. Nevertheless, as we daily confess them … the Blood of Christ at Calvary still is the Efficacious means by which we receive forgivenss of them. We can ask for / be forgiven … for past & current offenses … not future ones. Perseverance in faith and confession is the only way to apply the Blood of Calvary to these daily offenses.

And, the frequent receipt of the Eucharist is extremely efficacious in protecting/preserving us from our daily sinning. So is daily prayer & scripture reading. But, most especially is the regular receiving of Christ in his Eucharist.

Why did Jesus after the Resurrection show up to the Disciples breath on them with the Holy Spirit and give them the power to forgive sins? If all sins were forgiven he would not of done this - it seems sins still needs to be forgiven

There are plenty of good responses here so I won’t elaborate on the theology. I would say however when you are responding to a protestant about the beliefs they hold, it should be done with respect. Saying that you think there beliefs (which they hold as dear as Catholics hold their own) are stupid is highly offensive and would most likely put the other party on the defensive and not in the proper state of mind to hear and consider your arguments, no matter how well articulated or grounded in scripture.

Personally, I am in the process of converting from my Southern Baptist background to Catholicism. Before the start of my conversion, if my beliefs had been called “stupid” this would have most certainly been counter productive to your cause. Even now after having learned the truth and holding the catholic beliefs as my own, your statement still ruffled my feathers a bit. Food for thought I hope.

God Bless

dcana

thanks for the reply

Your conversation to validate sin and its power, is taxing to say the least, and not of Christ. At the Cross was the sin and its power to cause death, removed from the living. Honestly what’s the point of following Jesus, and trusting in His finish Work on the Cross, if you can get the same result by not following Jesus, and not trusting in His finish work on the Cross?

Isn’t this already inherited through Adam and Eve?

“penalty for mortal sin is spiritual death”.

Are you saying we are to die twice, or even more then that? How is it that we can inherit the same by Grace through faith? Are you saying that God’s Grace is insufficient to keep you? Even Apostle Paul, a great one, declared that the Lord told him that God’s Grace is sufficient to overcome that which Paul said himself of an infirmity he could not over come. Are you saying that God doesn’t have the ability to keep us?

Should one put his faith in his ability to obey, or should one put his faith in God the Father’s ability to fulfill His Word? Does one have the ability to fulfill God’s Word, or does God, in Jesus’ Name. Because in the Name of Jesus Christ is the agreement from God the Father to Fulfill His Word, in men.

Luke:18:9: And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11: The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12: I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13: And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14: I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Note that the Pharisee puts his faith in his own obedience, but it is the publican that knows that he has not the ability to fulfill, and trusts in God’s Mercy. Therefore trust in God’s Mercy that He has fulfilled the law for him, because the publican knows and God knows we can’t.

Does this mean not to be repetitive? No, for the believer who holds on to the old man, cannot rejoice in the new man, but yet he is saved, and fruitless, of which the Lord shall judge rightly.

Therefore the salvation to the resurrection is to trust in the Lord’s fulfillment of God’s Word in the flesh, not in our own. Didn’t Jesus say ask of the Father and He (meaning Jesus Christ) will do it?

James:2:19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Don’t fool yourself into thinking that Abraham had faith in his own ability to fulfill God’s Word. He tried that and he had Ishmael which is not the fulfillment of God’s Word, nor God’s Work of which Abraham was a participant. Since God told Abraham that his inheritor was Isaac, Abraham had to trust that God could and would fulfill it, even though Abraham was about to kill Isaac. Therefore it is the Faith in God’s ability to fulfill His Word. The Israelites knew they didn’t, have the ability to take the land of milk and honey, because they trusted in their own abilities, but after forty years of being with the Presence of God, they finally had the Faith that the Lord their God would give them the land of milk and honey. Without that faith, they did not go into the land of milk and honey, hence no result do to the lack of faith in God’s ability to fulfill His Word which is God’s Work. On the seventh day God rested from His Work which is the fulfillment of what He said. Note He needed no man to complete it.

The day awaits no one, but by the Grace of God do we have the knowledge to await the day. Man does not appoint his own destiny, only God can appoint a destiny.

fhansen
thanks for the reply

Ok then, since Jesus tells you to go, and sin no more how does that come to pass if eventually in your view you will sin again? How can what He said, be fulfilled? Since it seems you imply, you can’t fulfill it.

What we receive from the Atonement is not only the forgiveness of sin but also the power-the grace- to overcome sin and death. This is the New Covenant, prophesied in Jer, whereby God becomes the God of man again and He undertakes the work of writing His laws “on our hearts and on our minds.”

We can’t fulfill it without* Him*-that’s the difference. In the OC man still possessed a “righteousness” of his own, as per Phil 3:9, not of God, because man’s righteousness wasn’t based on faith in God. Faith was effectively destroyed at the Fall. And no amount of attempting/pretending to be righteous, by following the Law that was prescribed for that purpose-could alter that fact. IOW, the Law justifies no one. But we’re still judged by the Law-because it’s holy, spiritual, and good-but we’re not. And this is exactly what the Atonement is meant to rectify; by reconciling man with God, God becomes the God of man again, first of all. IOW man doesn’t need the Law to be righteous, rather man needs God in order to be righteous. That’s all there is to it. And ‘with God all things are possible’.

God didn’t create His creation to sin, i.e. sin is not natural for man, common as sin is. And His purpose has always been to restore His creation to authentic justice-but with cooperation and without coercion. In any case, unless man lives by the Spirit, God dwelling and active within, man has no hope of being who he was created to be.

fhansen
thanks for the reply
Jesus said on the Cross it is finished.

Jn:19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Though I understand your point; but we don’t have the power to over come sin and death. At the Cross it has been overcome, that is what our faith is. Sin and death need not be overcome but once, not again and again. Jesus on the Cross, and resurrection, has overcome sin and death for all. Through one man was sin and death brought into the world, through one, our Lord Jesus Christ sin and death has been overcome in the world.

fhansen
thanks for the reply

nice

What is the calamity of man, but to not trust in the finish work of God.

Men judge men by their circumstances or situation whether it be of their own doing or not, but the in the Kingdom of Heaven one is judged by whether the Lord God knows you or not.

Mt:25:12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Lk:13:25: When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Lk:13:27: But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Sin is not overcome until sin no longer exists. What was finished was Jesus’ sacrificial work of Atonement. Man and God are reconciled, to the extent man accepts the offer. But sin is the problem- because sin is opposition to God and His love. Otherwise God would be in the rather strange position of holding man accountable for sin for centuries and then one day capriciously dismissing sin as if it longer mattered. God’s purpose in the Redemption is to restore integrity to His universe, not simply overlook the lack of it.

The calamity of man is to not trust in, and most importantly to not love, God. Once this is accomplished in us, the Potter molding the clay, placing His laws in our minds and writing them on our hearts, the greatest commandments are fulfilled, to love God and neighbor, and therefore the Law also happens to be fulfilled. For man nothing is possible, with God all things are possible.

This is exactly how the Gentiles were treated and we all know the price paid by those who did that. Let us not repeat the same blunders which caused our forefathers to stumble.

My 8-year old daughter was prompt to object to my slightest raising of voice while debating with my Protestant mother-in-law. She has now achieved what I could not in 27 years; thanks to her gentle ways, my mother-in-law has accepted the Rosary wholeheartedly.

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