How will sedevacantists "know" when a "real" Pope is elected?


#1

I’ve been following the various threads about why sedavacantists believe the current pope is invalid. They haven’t convinced me yet, but I don’t want this to be a thread that continues the arguements for or against. What I want to know is by what criteria will a sedavacantist determine that a validly elected pope sits in the Chair of Peter? What has to happen and who decides that “this is the real pope”?


#2

[quote=kwitz]I’ve been following the various threads about why sedavacantists believe the current pope is invalid. They haven’t convinced me yet, but I don’t want this to be a thread that continues the arguements for or against. What I want to know is by what criteria will a sedavacantist determine that a validly elected pope sits in the Chair of Peter? What has to happen and who decides that “this is the real pope”?
[/quote]

When a claimant to the papacy adheres to the Sacred Traditions of the Church, and not heresies; and when one works for Catholic Restoration, then all will know he is a true Pontiff.


#3

So, is this something you can only decide after his term? I mean if Pope Tyler I is elected after JPII, will you know based on form that he is or isn’t valid? or will you have to wait and see what he does in office to decide if you approve of him or not? I’m really trying to clarify my understanding of what sedevacantists think and my interpretation of what I’ve read in previous postings is that only in retrospect can you decide that this guy was the real deal because he wasn’t a heretic by your definition. My understanding of the Catholic position (and of course what I consider true) is that there is a procedure in place that guarantees us that the pope duly elected cannot let the gates of hell prevail against the Church.


#4

Joe,

I don’t think that kwitz was looking for an over-arching statement. Why don’t you give us a concrete example (or examples) on how you think this can be acheived.


#5

[quote=BrianDay]Joe,

I don’t think that kwitz was looking for an over-arching statement. Why don’t you give us a concrete example (or examples) on how you think this can be acheived.
[/quote]

and perhaps a bit more than just how this can be achieved but by what concrete criteria you’ll know when this has been achieved. Thanks Brian for clarifying better than I did about what I’m trying to understand.


#6

[quote=kwitz]I’ve been following the various threads about why sedavacantists believe the current pope is invalid. They haven’t convinced me yet, but I don’t want this to be a thread that continues the arguements for or against. What I want to know is by what criteria will a sedavacantist determine that a validly elected pope sits in the Chair of Peter? What has to happen and who decides that “this is the real pope”?
[/quote]

Since sedevacantists are schismatic and have severed union with the magisterium, then I guess they would do like the protestants do, elect one that fits their description of being “real”. Since there are several sects of sedevacantists who don’t even agree with each other, then you could have theoretically several “sedevacantist pontiffs”. For example there is Clemente Domínquez y Gómez (May 23 1946 - present) was proclaimed Pope Gregory XVII by supporters of the Palmar de Troya Catholic breakway movement in 1978. He is however viewed by mainstream Roman Catholicism as an anti-pope. Also consider Reverend Father Earl Lucian Pulvermacher, OFM Cap (born April 20, 1918) was elected Pope Pius XIII of the “true Catholic Church” in 1998. The “true Catholic Church” is a small Catholic sect based in Montana. Pulvermacher could be considered an antipope, although he has far fewer followers than the historical antipopes.

Remember, the heirarchy of the Church is top down, not democratic, or bottom up. The Pope is not selected by popular election, but by a special process that has been in place much longer than any sedevacantist has been alive. John Paul II is the current validly ordained pope. Anyone who claims differently is not really Catholic, but rather a schismatic.


#7

The restoration of the Tridentine Mass and cessation of the NOM would be a start.

Revocation of the V2 documents that are heretical and ambigious, and unable to be reconciled with Tradition.

That is just a start.

Other people can add to that.

But if you are really interested why not visit the sedevacantist sites.

Why reinvent the wheel here?


#8

[quote=kwitz]and perhaps a bit more than just how this can be achieved but by what concrete criteria you’ll know when this has been achieved. Thanks Brian for clarifying better than I did about what I’m trying to understand.
[/quote]

kwitz, you have my sympathy since trying to understand the logical conundra of sedevacantism is all but impossible. The logic is tortured and standards are impossible, since no final authority can exist to determine what is the final authority.:ehh:


#9

[quote=Joe Omlor]The restoration of the Tridentine Mass and cessation of the NOM would be a start.

Revocation of the V2 documents that are heretical and ambigious, and unable to be reconciled with Tradition.

That is just a start.

Other people can add to that.

But if you are really interested why not visit the sedevacantist sites.

Why reinvent the wheel here?
[/quote]

Who will elect him? Most of the Cardinals were appointed by this pope, so aren’t they suspect as well?


#10

When one is elected that agrees with them…:slight_smile:


#11

I’m getting confussed there are 2 different threads discussing the same thing:bounce:


#12

[quote=Mandi]I’m getting confussed there are 2 different threads discussing the same thing:bounce:
[/quote]

Part of it is my fault (mea culpa), but this is a real problem in their thinking. The next pope will be valid when he does what they want, but this pope was elected by an invalid group (as will be the next one) since this College of Cardinals embraced Vatican II and all of that.


#13

[quote=ralphinal]Part of it is my fault (mea culpa), but this is a real problem in their thinking. The next pope will be valid when he does what they want, but this pope was elected by an invalid group (as will be the next one) since this College of Cardinals embraced Vatican II and all of that.
[/quote]

And just who decides that the current pope and college of Cardinals is invalid? You? You are overrating your importance in the Mystical Body of Christ. I dare any of sedevacantists to post this question to Karl or Jimmy. I want to see that answer.


#14

[quote=Apologia100]And just who decides that the current pope and college of Cardinals is invalid? You? You are overrating your importance in the Mystical Body of Christ. I dare any of your sedevacantists to post this question to Karl or Jimmy. I want to see that answer.
[/quote]

You might want to re read ralphinal’s post. I do not believe she/he considers themself to be a sede vancantist.:wave:


#15

Oops. My bad. I’m tired and a little touchy. I should get going, but there are so many good posts to respond to. :smiley:


#16

[quote=Joe Omlor]The restoration of the Tridentine Mass and cessation of the NOM would be a start.

Revocation of the V2 documents that are heretical and ambigious, and unable to be reconciled with Tradition.

That is just a start.

Other people can add to that.

But if you are really interested why not visit the sedevacantist sites.

Why reinvent the wheel here?
[/quote]

By What Criteria do you decide that this is direction the Church is supposed or not supposed to go? When you speak of Tradition, do you speak of DOCTRINE, or Diciplines? One can be changed, the other can not (For example, the Latin Church’s preferance for choosing celibate Men for it’s priests may change in the future, because it is a discipline, not a doctrine). What makes the Tidentine Mass more “pure” than, say, the small communities that met and broke bread in 100 A.D. Maybe we should go back to that? :rolleyes:

What DOCTRINES out of the second Vatican Council are contrary to DOCTRINES that have been taught for the past 2000 years? Can you give us some specifics? (You know, Doctrines…the basis of the rule of Faith and Morals derived from the revelation of the Truth, who is Jesus Christ, who promised that the Gates of Hell would never prevail against the Church that He was to build…you know…those Doctrines…) :wink:


#17

Here is a scenario which I want sedevacantists to answer (no sarcasm):

If I were elected Pope, I would push for a “universal indult” for the Traditional Latin Mass. I would allow the Novus Ordo to continue to exist, however I would be “zero-tolerance” when it comes to breaking from the rubrics. I would not take back Vatican II since although it is not dogmatic it’s still there. But, I would be much less ecumenical and teach more Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (not to mention getting the faithful to learn their Latin.) I would also accept a papal cornonation.

This is what I would really do if I were Pope. Would I be a valid Pope in your eyes?


#18

[quote=the_geezer]kwitz, you have my sympathy since trying to understand the logical conundra of sedevacantism is all but impossible. The logic is tortured and standards are impossible, since no final authority can exist to determine what is the final authority.:ehh:
[/quote]

I guess that’s why I started the thread - I couldn’t see anyway out of the logic they were using and was curious to see how they saw it. So far no sedevacantist but Joe Omlor has attempted to explain by what criteria they’ll be able to know when we “finally” have a pope again - which leads me to believe it might be because they don’t know what that criteria is.


#19

[quote=Richard Lamb]When one is elected that agrees with them…:slight_smile:
[/quote]

When one is elected who will agree and comply with the teachings of the CATHOLIC CHURCH !
Either the Vat2 boys are RIGHT and all previous teachings are incorrect OR previous teachings were correct and the Vat2 boys are WRONG. One can’t have it both ways as they contradict one another.

Personally, I believe that the first thing a real Pope would do is recind Vatican 11, as this is the source of all the rot we are copping today.
It’s fruits are there as proof for anyone who cares to look.

With most of my friends, and even family members now having lost or abandoned their faith. The “Faith of our Fathers” is looking pretty good to me right now!


#20

Queen of Sheba - Is it possible for the current group of Cardinals to elect a valid pope by your criteria?

If so, how could a similar group of Cardinals elect the invalid JPII?

If not, how can we ever get a valid pope again (by your standards, not mine)?


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