How would you handle a Muslim?


#1

At the request MrS.

If Muslims came to door to door like the Jehovah Witnesses do:

How would you handle a Muslim that came to your door?

Be mindful that this is just hypothetical.


#2

I do not fear any JW, Mormon etc… my life is not in danger.

But I have to admit a degree of apprehension in the presence of a Muslim.

This of course is partly my fault… as I have often declared by believe in Catholicism, and my rejection of Islam and the false prophet. My faith compels me to do so.

This of course is partly their fault… as no Muslim has refuted the directive to kill all unbelievers where ever you may find them.

So our meeting would probably take place on the front porch.:wink:

After that, I don’t know if I should offer coffee or something to drink or even just water.

But I would certainly have references handy… and I would request that we only “discuss” one subject at a time.

my ignorance of the Arabic language would be an issue too - so English would have to be acceptable as common ground.


#3

[quote=MrS]I do not fear any JW, Mormon etc… my life is not in danger.

But I have to admit a degree of apprehension in the presence of a Muslim.

This of course is partly my fault… as I have often declared by believe in Catholicism, and my rejection of Islam and the false prophet. My faith compels me to do so.

This of course is partly their fault… as no Muslim has refuted the directive to kill all unbelievers where ever you may find them.

So our meeting would probably take place on the front porch.:wink:

After that, I don’t know if I should offer coffee or something to drink or even just water.

But I would certainly have references handy… and I would request that we only “discuss” one subject at a time.

my ignorance of the Arabic language would be an issue too - so English would have to be acceptable as common ground.
[/quote]

I most definitely agree with the front porch issue…


#4

[quote=MrS]I do not fear any JW, Mormon etc… my life is not in danger.

But I have to admit a degree of apprehension in the presence of a Muslim.

This of course is partly my fault… as I have often declared by believe in Catholicism, and my rejection of Islam and the false prophet. My faith compels me to do so.

This of course is partly their fault… as no Muslim has refuted the directive to kill all unbelievers where ever you may find them.

So our meeting would probably take place on the front porch.:wink:

After that, I don’t know if I should offer coffee or something to drink or even just water.

But I would certainly have references handy… and I would request that we only “discuss” one subject at a time.

my ignorance of the Arabic language would be an issue too - so English would have to be acceptable as common ground.
[/quote]

lol. I know, as a muslim, i have no place to respond in this thread. But *honestly * guys, do you believe that Muslims are out to kill you? Is that what people are thinking when i’m walking down the street…lol. I talk to non-muslims all the time, and I have never seen fear in their eyes (ok, maybe sometimes) but it always dissipates…and at the end of the conversation, they realize how the media has brainwashed them…and we end up laughing about that too.

On a more serious note, however, the directive to kill was during a time of war. Yes, MrS, as scary and weird as it may be, if a Muslim goes to war with another group of people, then they are commanded to kill. I find it hard to believe that you have asked a muslim on the context of the verse and found that it is a free license to kill anyone at anytime.

anyway…sorry to intrude on the thread :smiley:


#5

[quote=Faith101]lol. I know, as a muslim, i have no place to respond in this thread. But *honestly * guys, do you believe that Muslims are out to kill you? Is that what people are thinking when i’m walking down the street…lol. I talk to non-muslims all the time, and I have never seen fear in their eyes (ok, maybe sometimes) but it always dissipates…and at the end of the conversation, they realize how the media has brainwashed them…and we end up laughing about that too.

On a more serious note, however, the directive to kill was during a time of war. Yes, MrS, as scary and weird as it may be, if a Muslim goes to war with another group of people, then they are commanded to kill. I find it hard to believe that you have asked a muslim on the context of the verse and found that it is a free license to kill anyone at anytime.

anyway…sorry to intrude on the thread :smiley:
[/quote]

this is a two sided discussion… you are not intruding at all. so please knock or ring the bell again :thumbsup:

You have in fact suggessted the first topic… please have a seat.

I did not say that Muslims have a free license to kill anyone at anytime. James Bond may have been Anglican… I doubt he was Muslim.

What I did say:

  1. I understand that Jesus is Lord and God. I believe in the Triune God, and the inerrancy of Scripture as properly interpreted by the only Church founded by Jesus - the Catholic Church.

  2. I reject Allah, as I believe that Allah is not the same as the Triune God, and is a god-as-master, not God-as-Father.

  3. I reject Muhammad as a false prophet.

now.

I am not an innocent woman or child.

I am an “unbeliever” to a Muslim

Is the Muslim who follows the very word of the Quran not obligated to “…kill the unbeliever where ever you find him…” ??

If that is the case, we remain in public view on the front porch.

If you can show that is not the case, convincingly, and are not refuted by those who know better than I, then we can adjourn to the back deck and discuss the next topic…:ehh:


#6

there have been bad guys who have gone door to door claiming to be mormons or jehovah’s witnesses, that have raped homeowners.


#7

[quote=JoeyWarren]At the request MrS.

If Muslims came to door to door like the Jehovah Witnesses do:

How would you handle a Muslim that came to your door?

Be mindful that this is just hypothetical.
[/quote]

I recently had a Muslim client take me to lunch and try to convert me. I treat in the exact same way I treat my Baptist cleients when they take me to lunch and try to convert me.I treat them with respect and give them a very firm “you are wasting your time”.

I have many Muslim clients, and many Muslim friends-I cant imagine why anyone would worry about someone just becuase they are Muslim. After all I didnt cut off my Irish friends when the IRA was setting off bombs in London.


#8

MrS:

I believe you have never looked at what muslims say about the “kill the unbelievers” type verses.

Is the Muslim who follows the very word of the Quran not obligated to “…kill the unbeliever where ever you find him…” ??

There is no school of Islam that takes this verse to be anything other than a command limited to warfare, and only the most radical argue that it can be applied to undeclared wars.

I refer you to a Shafi’i (a more conservative version of traditional Islam) fatwa: livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

Question II

If it is said: “What about the verse of the Qur’an which says {kill the unbelievers wherever you find them} and the Sahih Hadith which says ‘I have been ordered to fight against the people until they testify’?”

We say: It is well known among scholars that the following verse,

{fa-qtulU l-mushrikIna Haythu wajad-tumUhum}
{kill the idolaters wherever you find them}(al-Tawba, 9:5)
is in reference to a historical episode: those among the Meccan Confederates who breached the Treaty of Hudaybiyya [Sulh al-Hudaybiyya] which led to the Victory of Mecca [Fath Makka], and that therefore, no legal rulings, or in other words, no practical or particular implications, can be derived from this Verse on its own. The Divine Irony and indeed Providence from the last part of the Verse, {wherever you find them} - which many of our mufassirs understood in reference to place (i.e., attack them whether inside the Sacred Precinct or not) - is that the victory against the Meccans happened without a single battle taking place, whether inside the Sacred Precinct or otherwise, rather, there was a general amnesty [wa-mannun 'alayhi bi-takhliyati sabîlihi or naha ‘an safki d-dima’] for the Jâhilî Arabs there. Had the Verse not been subject to a historical context, then you should know that it is of the general type 'amm] and that it will therefore be subject to specification [takhsîs] by some other indication [dalîl]. Its effect in lay terms, were it not related to the Jahilî Arabs, is that it can only refer to a case during a valid war when there is no ceasefire.
Among the well known exegeses of “al-mushrikîn” from this Verse are: “al-nâkithîna khâssatan” [specifically, those who have breached (the Treaty)] [al-Nawawi al-Jawi, Tafsîr, 1:331]; “al-ladhîna yuharibunakum” [those who have declared war against you] [Qâdi Ibn 'Arabi, Ahkâm al-Qur’ân, 2:889]; and “khâssan fî mushkrikî l-'arabi dûna ghayrihim” [specifically, the Jâhilî Arabs and not anyone else] [al-Jassâs, Ahkâm al-Qur’ân, 3:81].

As for the meaning of “people” [al-nâs] in the above well-related Hadith, it is confirmed by Ijmâ’ that it refers to the same “mushrikîn” as in the Verse of Sura al-Tawba above, and therefore what is meant there is only the Jâhilî Arabs [muskhrikû l-'arab] during the closing days of the Final Messenger and the early years of the Righteous Caliphs and not even to any other non-Muslims.

In sum, we are not in a perpetual state of war with non-Muslims. On the contrary, the original legal status [al-asl] is a state of peace, and making a decision to change this status belongs only to a Muslim authority who will in the Next World answer for their ijtihâd and decision; and this decision is not divinely charged to any individuals - not even soldiers or scholars - and to believe otherwise would go against the well-known rule in our Law that a Muslim authority could seek help from a non-Muslim with certain conditions, including, for example, that the non-Muslim allies are of goodwill towards the Muslims

The claim that Islam permits the killing of civilians or anyone non-muslim is completely false.


#9

Since i know arabic, and since i know most of the heretical doctrines of Hijaz and arabia, i’ll be more than happy to tell them how these heresies/doctrines ended up in quran…after that, well, i doubt they’ll come back again :smiley:

but i think i understand MrS’ question…she is not saying all muslims kill, but she doesnt know if this person infront of her understands that he should not kill or whether he is convinced that killing infidels is halal.


#10

I had a Muslim friend in New York. Preached on a lot of stuff about Mohammed etc… All that while smoking weed with me and drinking beers (this was before I became a catholic). The only Muslims I know in NYC are the ones that converted while in prison or the 24 Hour Store owners who sell cigarettes, booze and condoms to minors. They even sell drug paraphernalia such as crack pipes, bongs etc… REAL STAND UP PEOPLE!.

If one was to come to my house. I would just offer him some pork.

Not saying all Muslims are like that. But I have yet to meet a Muslim who practices his faith like the ones who are here.


#11

[quote=inJESUS]Since i know arabic, and since i know most of the heretical doctrines of Hijaz and arabia, i’ll be more than happy to tell them how these heresies/doctrines ended up in quran…after that, well, i doubt they’ll come back again :smiley:

but i think i understand MrS’ question…she is not saying all muslims kill, but she doesnt know if this person infront of her understands that he should not kill or whether he is convinced that killing infidels is halal.
[/quote]

Drug users and criminals kill dozens of times more people each year than any terrorist group ever has. So if you’re worried about Muslims at the door, you should be quaking in your boots and too afraid to answer if you see any male between the age of 16 and 25, right?


#12

How would I handle a Muslim? I’d hug him and invite him into my home, ask him if he’d like anything to eat or drink, sit down and hear him out. I would let him know openly that I am Catholic…And I don’t know what else.

Hypothetical questions are silly sometimes. Muslims aren’t Jehova’s Witnesses or Mormons. The latter two are more recent heresies who claim to be Christian religions, which is utterly and obviously false, and are much easier to debunk.

I just thought that I should note that I have several Muslim friends, and they are all tremendously gracious people. God bless them.

Tony


#13

yes yes Tony correct…no one disagrees…it’s just a hypothetical question…just consider them like JW ( of course they dont do that)…what would you do or what arguments would you like to discuss…i guess it’s an entertaining thread :slight_smile:


#14

[quote=pro_universal]Drug users and criminals kill dozens of times more people each year than any terrorist group ever has. So if you’re worried about Muslims at the door, you should be quaking in your boots and too afraid to answer if you see any male between the age of 16 and 25, right?
[/quote]

who said am worried :smiley: i fear no human being be it muslim or other…i have muslim friends…


#15

[quote=pro_universal]The claim that Islam permits the killing of civilians or anyone non-muslim is completely false.
[/quote]

pro_universal,

Would you like to field my question to gurrato alaien that he has left unanswered?

Why did Muhammed order the men of the Jewish Qurayzah tribe killed and the women and children sold even though they did not take part of the Battle of the Trench against him?

Islam may prohibit killing, but Muhammed, the perfect Muslim, did not.


#16

Well, Abdul Rahman will be glad to hear that the command to kill the unbeliever applies only in time of war or in a particular historical epoch. Hopefully, that will not apply to his case.


#17

[quote=inJESUS]yes yes Tony correct…no one disagrees…it’s just a hypothetical question…just consider them like JW ( of course they dont do that)…what would you do or what arguments would you like to discuss…i guess it’s an entertaining thread :slight_smile:
[/quote]

now that’s the spirit!


#18

[quote=inJESUS]yes yes Tony correct…no one disagrees…it’s just a hypothetical question…just consider them like JW ( of course they dont do that)…what would you do or what arguments would you like to discuss…i guess it’s an entertaining thread :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I really don’t know. :stuck_out_tongue: I’d have to learn some Muslim apologetics as well as the history of the Qu’ran before taking such matters very seriously.


#19

[quote=George Waters]pro_universal,

Would you like to field my question to gurrato alaien that he has left unanswered?

Why did Muhammed order the men of the Jewish Qurayzah tribe killed and the women and children sold even though they did not take part of the Battle of the Trench against him?

Islam may prohibit killing, but Muhammed, the perfect Muslim, did not.
[/quote]

Muhammad did not order them killed. He referred their case to Saed Ibn Muadh, and they agreed to abide by his ruling…which was to kill the men and take the women and children.

The reason they were subject to judgment is that they had violated a peace treaty for the second time by supporting attacks on the muslims.

The tribe was essentially at that time on trial, and it agreed to the judge that Muhammad appointed. They probably didn’t expect him to be that harsh, but he was, and that was the end of the story, much like the result of a criminal trial.


#20

for anyone interested… a small point to make (actually a rather significant point where my wife is concerned)

[size=2]MrS stands for Mr. S cuz my last name is longer than most, and my high school apologetics classes have always used this moniker… as have some of their parents who have become dear friends

[/size][size=2]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_12.gif[/size][size=2]. me at a future age

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/18/18_6_2.gifmy wife at a future age;)

[/size]


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