bump for gazelam


bump for gazelam


Okay…so are you now saying, as an LDS apologist,
that the early Christians and their teachings were not corrupted by Hellenism?

How long have you been LDS?


Is Augustine’s opinion to be trusted?


He is a Catholic who practices the LDS religion. Uses many of the common tactics used by Mormons, taking comments, verses, and writings of ECF out of context to “prove” Christianity has been Mormon from the start.

I’ll flagged for this post and either get suspended again or maybe even banned this time but…


I think we should continue the conversation.

His posts don’t bother me. :blush:


You go Grandma!

Now what more can be said about “what do Protestants and Catholics think of Mormons?” I have learned a lot from this thread. Wow. Is there anything been missed?


There’s plenty more to learn because Mormons keep changing their position.

Are they now accepting early Church teachings from those that were corrupted by the Greek philosophers? Since when?

It’s a roller coaster ride.

So let’s stay tuned and see if any questions get answered.


It’s very helpful when engaging someone on a forum like this to answer the questions directly without using five paragraphs talking in circles.

Like this:

1). My post was for gazelam but you answered it.

2). If you are answering for him, please answer whether or not the Jewish people should be able to define the God of Judaism?

Just stick to the questions asked because it’s beginning to seem like you are trying to get me off your trail.


Please answer my question about Augustine.

Do you or do you not trust his teachings?


If you read a frequent Mormon poster’s tagline, you are prominently displayed. Perhaps someone is out to get you?


But, according to BYU religious studies, they are not to be trusted. So why trust their unique doctrines now?

LDS Doctrine Compared with other Christian Doctrines

Stephen E. Robinson, “LDS Doctrine Compared with other Christian Doctrines,” in Latter-day Saint Essentials: Readings from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism , ed. John W. Welch and Devan Jensen (Provo, UT: BYU Studies and the Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 2002), 177–81.

LDS Doctrine Compared with Other Christian Doctrines

As biblical scholar W. D. Davies once pointed out, LDS doctrine can be described as biblical Christianity separated from hellenized Christianity, a conjunction of first-century Judaism and Christianity. Latter-day Saints accept the Bible and its apostolic teachings as God’s word, but reject many later interpretations of the Bible that express Greek philosophical concerns—they accept John and Paul but reject Augustine.


I saw that and thought it was most uncharitable.


But BYU says his opinion is to be discounted-

So is Augustine credible or not?

(Just say yes or no)


As I understand it, he’s a convert to the Mormon church. He’s no longer Catholic.


Augustine rejected Christianity because the early Christians believed God was incorporeal?


Please stop derailing the thread.

We can discuss all of these issues you are bringing up after we finish the current conversation.

Now back to Augustine…


The ECF are witnesses to what the ECF believed. They are not infallible and their writings are not inerrant.
So they are credible if used to understand what they believed.
They are part of what the Paster of Hermas called an “inferior” church, so they are not like St. Peter and those Christians who knew Peter was the living leader of Christ’s Church on earth.

If you don’t understand that, I am sorry. I cannot make it much simpler. If you are looking for a “gotcha,” I hope you didn’t find it and will instead try to UNDERSTAND what I believe.
Charity, TOm


You should read Augustine!!!
Augustine believed that Christians in the late 4th or early 5th century believed in an embodied God.
I think he was correct in this understanding and his mother, a Catholic saint, believed as Augustine thought all Christians believed.
St. Ambrose told Augustine that true Christianity rejects an embodied God.

This is what you can learn from reading Augustine.

Tertullian centuries earlier highlight the CHANGE in Christianity and speaks against it.
Origin earlier than Tertullian highlights the TWO views one aligned with Judaism, embodiement and one rejecting Judaism, non-embodiment. Origin argues for non-embodiment, but tells us that Bishop Melito (from many decades earlier) wrote about embodiment.

It is a common belief among LDS Christian scholars and non-LDS Christian Scholars that many or all Christian believed in an embodied God and only layer did this change.
Charity, TOm


I am responding to things that are said.
I am not sure if I can keep posting when it seems you have not read the ECF and are not trying to understand what I am sharing with you.

Perhaps you can acknowledge that ancient Jews according to many ECF and scholars believed in an embodied God. Thus your Catholic view aligns with 12th century Jews, but my LDS view aligns with ancient Judaism. Can you respond to this???
Charity, TOm

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