https://www.quora.com/What-do-Protestants-and-Catholics-think-of-Mormons/answer/James-Hough-1


#957

I have already almost quoted Origin but here is a quote.

Origen said:
The Jews indeed, but also some of our people, supposed that God should be understood as a man, that is, adorned with human members and human appearance. But the philosophers despise these stories as fabulous and formed in the likeness of poetic fictions. (Origen, Homilies on Genesis 3:1)

For ancient Jews who spoke of God’s hands (this author limits his discussion to hands and fingers because he says there is just too much).

https://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/articles/publications/publications0035.html

Maimonides over states that incorporeal strain of thought, but he still acknowledges that all the way in the 12th century there are those who believe God is corporeal.

I have quoted Origen claiming Jews believe God is has a human appearance.

I told you that Justin Martyr and Basil the Great also said this about Jews. Now that you have a quote, please provide ancient evidence that Jews taught God was incorporeal (not un-see-able, but actually without form).

Charity, TOm


#958

In Confessions Augustine explains how he rejected Christianity (left the faith after he grew up in the faith with his mother St. Monica) because he discovered how silly it was to believe that God was corporeal (and whatever Christian devotion he had was not as strong as his commitment to the idea that God could not be corporeal).
When he listened to Ambrose speak about God as incorporeal, he decided that his previous understanding (in rejection of Christianity, but almost certainly in previous acceptance of Christianity) was wrong and that Christians do not believe God is corporeal.

Charity, TOm


#959

Yes, unless the person rejects it and refuses to come home. It is my prayer that TOm and all Mormons come home.


#960

There was a group founded in the 4th century which believed in an embodied God and another 4th century group which had many membership who believed in an embodied God. Therefore belief in an embodied God was the common belief of Christianity passed down from the Apostles.

Another Mormon argument:

Many ECFs ridiculed Jews for believing that God had a body of flesh and bone.
Therefore the early Christians believed that God had a body of flesh and bone.


#961

The further one gets from a syllogism, the more I suspect sophistry. As we use to say, “If you can’t tie a knot, tie a lot.”


#962

Stephen, It has been a while since i have read Cassian, but when you say, “a group founded in the 4th century” I think you are CONFLATING two things. I of course am referring to Serapion who was stripped of his belief by John Cassian and "Suddenly he broke into bitter weeping and sobbing, and throwing himself prostrate on the ground with groans, cried, ‘Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, and I have none to grasp, and I know not whom to adore or to address.’” This account is presented as Serapion and his community holding this view as long as they can remember and being purged of the view by the “learned man.”
Some scholars have suggested that a group called the Audians came to their view in the 4th century, but there is no reason to link this to Serapion. (And truth be told, I have no idea why some scholars claim this is a 4th century invention other than WISHFUL MODERN Catholic hope that what is more ancient must be true).
I think it most like that both Serapion’s group and the Audians are remnants of those Origen referred to when he said (bolding mine):

The belief in the embodied God was removed by “learned men,” but it was not the original Jewish or the original Christian view.

First, I am glad we agree that the ECFs claimed Jews believed in an embodied God. Please tell @SunshineGrandma
Second, I am just responding to SunshineGrandma who made the argument that Catholicism was true because it like Judaism rejected a corporeal God. Problem was she source here idea from the 12th century when Judaism succeeded in the purge Christians carried out earlier. The ECF (other than Melito, Tertullian, and Lacantius) evidence that they REJECTED the belief held by the Jews.
This is a refutation of a poor (IMO) Catholic argument, not an argument I made.
Charity, TOm


#963

There was a group founded in the 4th century which believed in an embodied God and another 4th century group which had many membership who believed in an embodied God. Therefore belief in an embodied God was the common belief of Christianity passed down from the Apostles.

And to prove it we will quote one guy from one community. And claim one community, named after the individual who started it, reflects the teachings of the Apostles. Like claiming Arianism, named after a fourth century priest, is Apostolic teaching.

Another Mormon argument:

Many ECFs ridiculed Jews for believing that God had a body of flesh and bone.
Therefore the early Christians believed that God had a body of flesh and bone.


#964

It doesn’t matter if ECF, or anyone else, thought/believed/questioned God’s corporeality.

It is NOT the teaching accepted by the Catholic Church, therefore their opinions were nothing more than that.

Quoting Origen, Basil… are not Jewish sources.

Maimonides established the foundation of faith that is still used today. However, there are many “cultural” Jews who would disagree with his teachings. That doesn’t change the fact that his teachings are the creed of the Jewish people.


#965

That is utterly false. I have provided at least one link showing the Jews differed on this -

Meaning:

Some Jews believed God was incorporeal some believed he was corporeal.

I don’t know how else to say this but it doesn’t matter what the ECF’s said about it!!


#966

Here. Read this so you can understand it from a Jewish, not Mormon, perspective.

https://m.jpost.com/Magazine/Judaism/Does-God-have-a-body-331789


#967

One can never loose the mark on the soul that Christian baptism leaves. They can reject the Church and her truth but because of their true baptism they remain Catholic. Of course many who reject the Church and refuse to adhere to her teachings are in a grave state and have possibly put their salvation at risk, they are able to come back anytime they realize or remember where the truth is. All they need to do is receive the sacrament of reconciliation, and barring any other impediments to the Eucharist such as an irregular marital situation, they may receive communion.

But it have to be something they choose.


#968

Exactly, as I said earlier, some ECF made the same mistake that Mormons did for the same reason, but it is a mistake.


#969

I did read your link about medieval Jews who discussed Gods corporeality and incorporeality.
It was unclear if any of those who rejected God corporeality did so before 500AD, but it was clear that Maimonides position was not universal in the 13th century.
It is an anti-Christian arguement as Christians must believe that Jesus Christ is fully divine and embodied. Maimonides is clear that Christians are “idol worshipers.” Moslems who do not believe in an embodied God are still wrong, but fair better in this respect per Mainmondes.

On ancient Jews:
I linked to a Jewish scholar who offered numerous ancient Jews speaking about God’s hands and fingers. This Jewish scholar claimed the corporeal understanding of God has so much evidence he needed to LIMIT his evaluation to hands and fingers.
So I am no expert, but do you have even one pre-Christian Jew who claimed the Biblical teaching that we are created in God’s image DOES NOT mean that God is embodied in some way.
It should be noted that LDS have never taught that God is LIMITED because He is embodied.

Charity, TOm


#970

SunshineGrandma,
I was suggesting that @Stephen168 and I agree that the Christian ECF taught that the ancient Jews believed in an embodied God. I think that if an ECF commented on Jewish beliefs in tjis respect they ALWAYS claimed Jews believed in an embodied God. Jews embraced the philosophical reasons to reject the more literal reading of the Bible much slower than Christians and the ECF witness to this.
Can you acknowledge that there is a lot of evidence pre-Christian Jews embraced an embodied/corporeal God and virtually (or completely) zero evidence that pre-Christian Jews rejected an embodied/corporeal God?
This is your apologetic, I am just claiming it evidences precisely the OPPOSITE of what you told @lokisuperfan.
Charity, TOm


#971

You would be wrong as I have said previously in this thread.

Hugh Nibley was known to find what he wanted on any page whether it was there or not. This seems to have become common in Mormon apologetics.


#972

Where did you say something that should have caused me to know that you do not believe the ECF taught that Jews believe in a corporeal/embodied God?
Also, do you know of any ECf that taught Jews do not believe in an embodied/corporal God? Or are you just claiming to not know (despite the 3 ECF I sited).
Charity, TOm


#973

That’s the point. The articles:

1). made reference to earlier Jewish teaching, though did not quote primary sources

2). Illustrate that the Jewish people are/were very comfortable debating whether or not God literally had fingers and hands.

3). Illuminate the fact that debate and discussion among Jewish teachers is common throughout their history

  • they take great pride in asking questions and even disagreement
  • the fact is, there was disagreement between them as to whether or not God was incorporeal
  • that disagreement does not equal consensus or majority, as you keep claiming

4). Show an ongoing debate that appears to have been put to an end with Maimonides.
-After hundreds of years of discussion, the belief that God was incorporeal became part of the Jewish creed

5). Illustrate that Jews and Christians evolve in their understanding of God

Humans do not exist in a vacuum. We have ideas and emotions that continue to mold our ideas as we age.
That is what the Jewish writers and teachers are telling us.


#974

When I said you are wrong.


#975

Yes, I already did provide the evidence that:

There was disagreement and debate over the corporeal vs incorporeal nature of God that persisted for hundreds of years (according to Jewish sources) which

culminated in a final decision by Maimonides to declare that God is incorporeal.

That declaration was accepted and has been a foundation for Jewish teaching and belief for 800 years.

Obviously there was support for Maimonides viewpoint or we would not be sitting here today discussing his teaching about the nature of God.


#976

What a game!!!
You said I was wrong as you previously said.
When did you previously say that you do not believe the ECF taught that Jews believe in a corporeal/embodied God?
Charity, TOm


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