Hypothetical - if Muslim/Christian roles reversed re: Abdul Rahmen


#1

What if the situation in Afghanistan were reversed and the government arrested a man who converted from Christianity to Islam and sentenced him to death? What would your response be to a call for prayer for this man?

Would you talk about medieval wars and how Islam has a violent past, and how Muhammad had a nine year old bride etc. etc. as though that had anything to do with the current situation of a man facing death?

Would you say that it’s not ‘real’ Christianity in Afghanistan or that Afghanistan isn’t a ‘real’ Christian state and leave it at that?

Would you blame everything in the news about this man on the biased media of the East?

Would you talk about the lack of morality in certain ‘Muslim’ countries, like the practice of “Temporary Marriages” in Iran?

What do you think the response of the Pope to this situation would be?
Of Billy Graham?
Of the different American churches?


#2

[quote=Ella]What if the situation in Afghanistan were reversed and the government arrested a man who converted from Christianity to Islam and sentenced him to death? What would your response be to a call for prayer for this man?
[/quote]

First this would most likely never happen because the Catholic church is against it completely. But in the sinerio that it would happen,yes, we would most certainly call for prayer, that he may be freed of all charges.

Would you talk about medieval wars and how Islam has a violent past, and how Muhammad had a nine year old bride etc. etc. as though that had anything to do with the current situation of a man facing death?

I am not sure how that would help the situation of someone being executed, so no I don’t think we would bring that up.

Would you say that it’s not ‘real’ Christianity in Afghanistan or that Afghanistan isn’t a ‘real’ Christian state and leave it at that?

Yes, we would say that is not the ‘real’ Christianity. Go to the vatican web site www.vatican.va you will notice that there is no really document that would support this kind of act.

Would you blame everything in the news about this man on the biased media of the East?

Again this would do nothing to help this man.

Would you talk about the lack of morality in certain ‘Muslim’ countries, like the practice of “Temporary Marriages” in Iran?

What does this have to do with someone on trial for converting?

I would suspect he would be completely against it due to the fact that the Catholic Churc is against it.

[quote]Of Billy Graham?

I don’t care to much for his opinion on this issue because he is a heratic.

Of the different American churches?

Only the reaction of the Catholic church would I pay attention to, and since the Catholic church is against this kind of act I would imagin the response would be apropriate.
[/quote]


#3

I would think he was wrong for converting to Islam but would defend to the death his right to do so.


#4

Ella, may I ask your point for the hypothetical?

I mean, it’s all well and good to say that if we support a person’s freedom to convert from Islam to Christianity then we should support a person’s freedom to convert from Christianity to Islam. We should pray always that people are led to the truth, and strive to help them see the way, but ultimately a person’s decisions are his or hers alone, and will be judged by God alone.

As a Christian I pray for all, Christian and non-Christian alike, to find salvation.


#5

I would say that if a Catholic converted to Islam, he has of course automatically excommunicated himself from the Catholic Church. Still, I wouldn’t call for him to be executed, like those bloodthirsty Muslim clerics in Afghanistan are doing. Rather, I would pray that God lead him BACK to the Catholic Faith.


#6

Why aren’t any Muslims responding? Oh that’s right…they have no response. Sorry.


#7

Cestusdei got my point.

Everything I enumerated as a possible response has been done on here by certain Muslims who post on here, in regards to Ahmed Rahmen. Of course they point to Christian history not to Islamic history; they point to nudist colonies in the West rather than temporary marriages in Iran.


#8

[quote=Ella]Cestusdei got my point.
Everything I enumerated as a possible response has been done on here by certain Muslims who post on here, in regards to Ahmed Rahmen. Of course they point to Christian history not to Islamic history; they point to nudist colonies in the West rather than temporary marriages in Iran.
[/quote]

hi to all,

the temporary marriage issue is issue of a sect of a shias. it means not all shias, buy the idea of legality of temporary marriage. it is an interpretation of a small sect of shias due to some political reasons & misunderstanding of the whole philosophy of islam.

lets not forget that shias r not the mainstream. they r no more than 10 to 15% of whole muslim world. they were & still r in minority b’cause most knowledgeable people do not buy their misunderstandings. then as i said, not every shia agrees with temporary marriage.

there were different forms of mariage before the advent of Prophet Muhamed. temporary marriage was one of the different forms of marriage in pre-Muhamed Arab society.

when Koran began to reveal during 22~23 years, all paganistic & ills of Arab society were removed but gradually. in the process when third caliph after Prophet Muhamed, learned that some people still r practicing temporary marriage he took harsh action & state clearly that temporary marriage (mut’ah) is banned forever. thus no mainstream muslim ever think about it sicne then.

as to multiple marriage issue, islam though allows upto 4 wives (polygyny) but with certain conditions only, otherwise ONE. no other religious book compells man to marry ONE wife except the Koran.

as to Prophet Muhamed marrying a 9 yrs old, u have to be honest when talking about this issue if u want other people to respect ur opinion. in this case few points u must remember:

  1. if it is a real issue then it must be more important to Muslims than anybody else.

  2. if it is was really a problem, then opponents of Prophet Muhamed, in his days, would certainly have blown it out of proportion. but they did not, b’cause it was not an issue at all to raise any objection on it from any angle.

  3. all marriages of…

cont///


#9
  1. all marriages of the Prophet, except with Aishah, were with the widows & due to the situation arised when Muslims had to fight with the pagans & many muslims lost their lives in fight to establish Allah’s religion. without Prophet’s mission all Arabia and other parts of the world would still be living in misery & practicing worst kind of slavery, racism & pagan rituals & norms.

(think about India, where without Muslims’ rule, lower catse Hindus still would have been living a life worst than the animals under Aryan’s racism.

thanks to islam and the Muslims who came to India & rescued millions of Hindus & enlightned this sub continent with the light of Islam. thus in the process Arayan Hindus stopped their racisim & start respecting their own lower caste Hindus as human being.

but still where the light of Islam is not spread completely in the southern part of India, many lower caste villages r still victim of higher class Hindus.)

Prophet’s job was to maintain peace & establish a just society & to put pagans back again on the right track of same relgion of Prophet Ishmael.

  1. Prophet married with Aishah, who was the daughter of his best friend, Abu Bakr. don’t forget that Abu bakr had the honour for being the first person to embrace islam. as such he is called Al-Siddeeq ( the one who attests something being true). And he was most pious & honoured person after the Prophet.

  2. Abu Bakr had two daughters. Asma was 10 yrs older than Aishah. according to the history, if the age of Aishah is calculated by keeping all the narrations/traditions related to Abu Bakr and his two daughters, it turns out that Aishah was atleast 18 to 19 years old when Prophet married.

  3. now, this mariage issue must be an issue for Abu Bakr and all Muslims more than u. if they did not have problem, then why this shud be an issue for u?
    besides, Aishah herself had no problem at any time in her life even after Prophet’s death, nor her father Abu Bakr had any problem as such after death of Prophet, Abu bakr was the first Caliph of Muslim state.
    if marriage of Aishah with the Prophet, was indeed an issue, enemies of Islam would have raised it at that time when they were after all possible loopholes in Islam & prophet’s life. amazingly this issue was not on the table of enemies of Islam. why? b’cause it was legal & not an issue at all.

  4. if u say: a certain hadith of bukhari said so & so, then my question is bukhari is not the Koran. Koran is the Word of God. even Imaam bukhari had laid down principles to check the authenticity of each & every narration/tradition with very harsh rules so that people shud not attach any wrong or false statement to the Prophet or Islam. and when all the narrations/traditions are gathered, checked & matched, it turned out that Aishah’s age was between 18 to 19 years at the time of marriage.
    u may say why u need to calculate now? well, back then it was not an issue at all b’cause what he did was within Koranic law. & according to Koran, marriage is due upon maturity (bulughah)

Koran did not specify the age of maturity b’cause not every race/nation/person has same age of maturity. in otherwords it is left upto the socitey’s evaluation based on their individual conditions.

  1. if Prophet was after lust, he could have married only virgins instead of widows in his young age. it is important to note that Prophet married Khadijah when she was about 40 & he was about 25.

  2. when i hear from critiques of Islam, that Prophet had sex with Aishah, i laugh at their criticism/reasoning. b’cause they raise this issue as if people when they get married do not sleep with their wives.

  3. as to Prophet marrying 11 wives, it was all due to the norm of his society in which he was born and when gradually Koran was revealed step by step all rules were laid down & implemented BUT GRADUALLY, as such a limit was impose to the number of wives upto 4 b’cause Arabs used to marry much more.

  4. marrying just one is not necessarily a sign of morality. morality is what God wanted from us. tell me why marrying with ur own mother & sisters or daughters is not right?
    u have no other reason except religious to reject the idea of marrying ur own mother/daughters/sisters. so, if God told u that man can marry upto 4 with certain conditions, then this is morality. I am amazed to know that in the Western evil nudist society, marrying more than one wife is not allowed but if someone has relationship with so many prostitutes, it is not a problem at all & prostitutes have full rights to spread their evil in the ‘civilised’ christian society. not to mention those christrians who live absolutely naked & those who marry with same sex and even with dogs. what a civilised christian society it is ! & also not to mention the child molesting catholic fathers.

  5. u may say: Jesus was not married &…

cont///


#10
  1. u may say: Jesus was not married & not a lustfull man. I wud say, if Jesus did not get chance to marry, does not mean that he was against marriage or multiple marriages. he did not came to cancel the torah’s law. torah’s law does not put ban on more than one marriage.
    2nd, u don’t know everyhting about Jesus b’cause ur gospel tells that not everything is recorded. many things r absent about Jesus. there is no information about his many years before his mission, where was he, what did he do.
    then when Jesus was hiding in the tomb after his so called crucifixion, a certain lady-Mary- went to anoint him. the question is what a young lady has to do with anointing a body of a young man of 33 (Jesus)?

  2. in the bible, previous Prophets had more than one wife. it was okay to have more. why? b’cause God is okay with it. it is Prophets’ job to tell us what is okay & what is not. there r certain things which r okay to only prophets but not to all of us b’cause of the mission given by God to them. u r ought to follow Prophets in the areas in which they allowed u to follow.
    following Prophets does not mean that since Jesus was not married at all, thus no follower of Jesus must get married. in the same way if Muhammed was married 11 wives, then u cannot raise question why 11 b’cause as i said, every issue must be seen within context. when time arrived to declare the limitation of upto 4 wives, he declared it & all, since then, cannot marry more than 4 (with condiions) otherwise ONLY ONE.


#11

hi to all christians,

there r mindless christians who b’cause of the effects of certain christian deceptive arguements, talk a lot about Prophet Muhamed’s marriage with Aishah that he married her when she was 9 & he was mroe than 50.

I just clarified that all the narrations/traditions related to Prophet Muhamed’s marriage & daughters of Abu Bakr, made it clear that since Asma was 10 yrs older than Aishah thus Aishah was atleast 18 to 19 yrs old when Prophet married her.

having said this, the following is a big question to all christians, especially for mindless ones:

u believe that God married to virgin Mary & Jesus, his son (who is literally begotten) was born, right?

now, how old was ur God when He married to virgin Mary and had sex with her?

it is for sure that Mary was a virgin & i am sure she was not a 100 yrs or 50 yrs old virgin & i learned from ur gospel that after the birth of baby Jesus she went thru same type of purification alongwith her husband/baby Jesus, as any Tamara, Sarah or Lisa of Jewish nation is supposed to go thru according to the torah’s requirement.

please tell me HOW OLD WAS YOUR GOD when HE HAD SEX with a JEWESS VIRGIN GIRL (MARY) ?

==================================


#12

[quote=ashok]please tell me HOW OLD WAS YOUR GOD when HE HAD SEX with a JEWESS VIRGIN GIRL (MARY) ?
QUOTE]

…and speaking of the especially mindless ones…
[/quote]


#13

ashok,
What does you diatribe have to do with the subject of this thread? Please stay on the subject which is about how Christians would react to a person converting to Islam vs. how the Muslims in Afghanistan are reacting to the man who converted to Christianity.


#14

[quote=Lance]ashok,
What does you diatribe have to do with the subject of this thread? Please stay on the subject which is about how Christians would react to a person converting to Islam vs. how the Muslims in Afghanistan are reacting to the man who converted to Christianity.
[/quote]

Thank you, Lance. ashok is continuing to illustrate my point. But back to the hypothetical.

I know my reaction would be to pray for this man and to protest his sentence of execution. I would also be embarrassed and outraged that any government would hand down such sentence and that any church officials or minsters would sanction it.


#15

[quote=Ella]Thank you, Lance. ashok is continuing to illustrate my point. But back to the hypothetical.

I know my reaction would be to pray for this man and to protest his sentence of execution. I would also be embarrassed and outraged that any government would hand down such sentence and that any church officials or minsters would sanction it.
[/quote]

Can you imagine the outrage if The Vatican, which is the only Catholic state I know of, handed down a death sentence for aposty.


#16

[quote=Lance]The Vatican, which is the only Catholic state I know of,.
[/quote]

hi to all catholics friends,

lance is right in saying : “The Vatican, which is the only Catholic state I know of”. who can deny this fact?

but what is really worth noting is the following facts:

after 2000 yrs of evangelization, preaching, performing miracles & gettting “inspired” by the holy ghost(s), what u have is a small area of few miles called Vatican with all kinds of dirt & filth around it.

popacy is so helpless. but pope is assumed infallible. he is “strong” with his holy ghost. but alas poor & helpless. he cannot even stop gay (homosexuals) parade around his vatican’s backyard not too far, just in a spitting distance from it.

from sex movies, videos to live prostitution is openly available around Vatican in Rome. pope cannot even change ppl of his own faith. they all live under secular anti-christ law of itlay. why? b’cause they prefer secular law over what popacy did in the past when they were living a life worst than the animals under christian fundamentalist popacy. since then for centuries they keep Vatican away from politics. in fact the whole christiandom keep christianity away from politics.

don’t forget that west’s recent progress is all due to rejecting christianity for various good reasons. b’cause christians felt that they cannot grow if they r kept under christianity of pope or any christian hierarchy. scientists cannot breath properly under christianity thus West cannot grow. christianity is anti-progress.

islam is pro-progress & pro-research. it encourages man to explore God’s creation. b’cause in the process, man will realise day by day, the bounties, mirculous nature of God’s creation. & this will eventually reveal the truthness of the Koran to the fullest. so far so many predictions/statements of the Koran came true & proved right thru independent science research, discoveries. Koran is always proved right. b’cause it is from God who created thsi whoel Universe.

the contributon of Muslims scientists paved the way to West’s renaissance. no Muslim scientific work, no West’s renaissance. thus without Islam & muslims contribution, West still would have been living a life worst than the animals.

thanks to Islam, when it’s followers came to india, they stopped another worst kind of human slavery practiced by the “higher class” Hindus to subjugate their own “lower caste” Hindus. there r more muslims in south east asia & indonesia, malaysia then where it initially originated. it is a miracle. it is growing faster than any other faith or ism or ideology. ppl. when study honestly they can’t help but embrace it.

islam is the final solution to all human affairs. it is from God. Christ’s message was a local mission for his jew-nation only, in his own words. ppl after him made a new relgion by the name of ‘christianity’. jesus did not preach this christianity. jesus himself was ofcourse not a christian. he was merely a man approved of God just any other prophet of God.

following islam means retaining the honour & dignity & pure essence of all the prophets, rishis of God who were sent to diferent nations. Koran says “for every nation, there was a warner” to guide ppl. after Koran, the mission was complete thus it is the last Book of God for all nations of the world till doomsday.


#17

It’s just so hard to fathom, in the Christian West, if someone converts to Islam, it just goes widely unnoticed. And really no one cares except maybe that persons close family and friends.

But if it did happen, I would denounce killing the convert as loud as I could.


On the topic of "temporary marriages, this article from Cornell is interesting:

library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/tmpmrig.htm

This concept is so ridiculous, you can get married for an hoursif you want just for a quick rendevous, then no longer married. Do people honestly believe this to be better than pre-marital sex?

I really don’t buy that Islamic countries are any less ‘sinful’ than the West. They can regulate morality more, but then they just come up with these silly ways to circumvent the restrictions. I don’t know, I find the idea of a temporary marriage, so ridiculous I can’t believe people actually think this somehow fools God.


#18

Yet it is a Catholic nun that is most associated with truly helping the poor and showing God’s love in India.

[quote=ashok]islam is the final solution to all human affairs.
[/quote]

It is interesting he used the words “Islam” and “final solution” in the same sentence isn’t it?


#19

[quote=ashok]hi to all christians,

there r mindless christians who b’cause of the effects of certain christian deceptive arguements, talk a lot about Prophet Muhamed’s marriage with Aishah that he married her when she was 9 & he was mroe than 50.

I just clarified that all the narrations/traditions related to Prophet Muhamed’s marriage & daughters of Abu Bakr, made it clear that since Asma was 10 yrs older than Aishah thus Aishah was atleast 18 to 19 yrs old when Prophet married her.

having said this, the following is a big question to all christians, especially for mindless ones:

u believe that God married to virgin Mary & Jesus, his son (who is literally begotten) was born, right?
[/quote]

Wrong.

The “fruitful virginity” of Mary is no more the result of God copulating with her (!!!) than the fruitfulness of a field which causes it to yield wheat & barley is the result of God copulating with Mother Earth.

We are not Mormons. We do not believe that God has a body - we do believe that God is Spirit.

Please do not attribute such filthy rubbish to us - please don’t attribute the notion that God copulates with a mortal woman to us. That sort of behaviour may be fine for the gods of Olympus: it is certainly not what we believe.

What we do believe is, that whereas a man is normally required for the birth of a child, the creative power of God through which this comes about did not include any activity by St. Joseph the Foster-father, but acted in Blessed Mary in such a way as to bring about the effect of human procreation without involving the act of human procreation.

All human procreation is the gift of God - in this case, the Child was conceived in Blessed Mary without procreation, by the power of the same God Who is the Creator of all things, Who alone makes the womb fertile, without whom no activity, procreative or otherwise, is possible. The fertilisation of the womb is always entirely the work of God - normally, men have a part in the process: in this one instance, no man had any part in it; any more than in the Creation.

As for the Lord being begotten - this is an analogical term: He is “eternally begotten before all ages”, not because He is a second-generation god (!), but because He is in some sense the Son of the One Whom He called His Father. Since human fathers beget sons, He Who is supremely Father, “after Whom all fatherhood in heaven and earth is named”, is said to “beget” the One Who is called His “Son” - not because there is fleshly begetting, but because the relation between an earthly father and an earthly son is a faint created reflection of the eternal, loving dependence of the “Son” upon the “Father”, and of the infinite Love of the “Father” for the “Son”. This is an analogy - like all analogies, it is limited: but it does bring out the infinitely personal character of the Love of God. It’s drawback, is that it can give a misleading notion of the nature of God: but all analogies can do this.

Calling Jesus Christ “the Word of God” avoids some problems - but is rather impersonal: theology has to do what it can within the limitations of human thought and language.

The Word is also begotten in time, in Mary, not by the Spirit of God, but by the power of the Spirit of God. The Spirit is not the Father of the God-man Jesus; any more than He is the Father of any other being.

I hope that answers your questions. ##

now, how old was ur God when He married to virgin Mary and had sex with her?

it is for sure that Mary was a virgin & i am sure she was not a 100 yrs or 50 yrs old virgin & i learned from ur gospel that after the birth of baby Jesus she went thru same type of purification alongwith her husband/baby Jesus, as any Tamara, Sarah or Lisa of Jewish nation is supposed to go thru according to the torah’s requirement.

please tell me HOW OLD WAS YOUR GOD when HE HAD SEX with a JEWESS VIRGIN GIRL (MARY) ?

==================================

God is eternal - don’t you know that ? :frowning:


#20

Could this possibly be because we Christians don’t murder people who don’t belive what we belive? We don’t blow ourselves up to kill people we disagree with and we don’t fly airplanes into buildings with innocent people in them so may that is why people don’t feel threatened by the pope. What country did Islam ever convert without a war?


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